The Disk Brake Diary.....Thread covering Disk swap on a '63

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Treozen
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The Disk Brake Diary.....Thread covering Disk swap on a '63

Post by Treozen »

OK - so this is going to be the continuous "Disk Brake Install" thread. I'll be updating, revising and editing it as I finalize the swap.

Final Edit Note: A more complete PDF guide has been created covering this topic (much of the material comes directly from this thread) but with added material, thoughts, comments, etc. The PDF was authored by myself and Dave (bigbrownpilot) and we hope it will be useful to you regardless of how you decide to tackle your disk brake conversion. Please read through the thread as well, many of the member comments are useful and additive to the topic and worth the read in addition to the more extensive PDF. Finally, a big thanks to Tom (ABQTBird) for hosting it for us on his site. You can download the PDF here: http://www.southsandia.com/forum/websit ... _Guide.pdf



Recent Edits / Additions


- Started Thread, Added parts list.
- Added details on the spindle adapter and brackets
- Added details on the caliper fitment issues and solution
- Added detail on booster modification and installation
- Added a tutorial on making double flares for brake lines and provided details on the line I used for this project.
- Updated some information on the vacuum booster (replaced 7" with 9")


The Kit:
Image

This is a continuation from the discussion / post here:

http://www.vintagethunderbirdclub.net/p ... php?t=8852

But I created this thread to keep all the actual kit data and my build experience somewhat together since the prior thread was started before I actually got into the swap process.

I thought I'd start you out with some basic data:

Kit type: Front only, complete kit, included Booster and Master Cylinder
Manufacturer: Auto City Classic
Cost: $650 shipped
Purchase path: Direct from Auto City Classic but they sell on eBay also
Grades:

Material / parts quality: A- (bearings looked to be cheap imports, otherwise, good)
Bracket Hardware: A
Instructions: F (half a page...seriously)
Bolt-on Kit status: D
Customer service: Remains to be seen
Overall Grade: Hmm...so far, about a C

I've completed the swap, but I'm not quite done and need some time to get everything sorted as far as the pictures, etc, so...for my first installment Ive provided you a parts list with comments - sorry this seems to be as big as I can make it...

Image
Last edited by Treozen on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:46 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Current Classic Garage (or money pits):
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Post by novanutcase »

Excellent documentation!

Keep it up!!

John
Professional Pic Whore

Image
Treozen
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Lets talk spindles.....

Post by Treozen »

Ok, for the next installment, lets talk spindles and brackets.


The kit I used and at least one other kit for sure, use a "spindle adapter" so that the inner wheel bearing will fit. I'm not sure if all kits use an adapter but all of those I looked at (that have a picture of the kit) seem to - in some cases, it looks like the exact same one.

Here is what it looks like:
Image

There are a few VERY important things you need to know / do in terms of the spindle adapter, so here they are:

1) The spindle adapter will slide inside the inner bearing but the tolerances are extremely tight. A tight fit in this case is a good thing, but you also need to be able to get the bearing on straight once you have it grease-packed and installed in the rotor. You MUST test fit or you risk getting your bearing stuck on crooked.

I test fit mine and found that one set of bearings and adapter fit pretty good, but the other was so tight I could not slide the bearing on, in fact, it got stuck almost immediately and I had to use needle-nose pliers to pop it loose. There was no way this bearing would slide over the adapter straight. The solution was to use some 320 sandpaper and two grades of wire wool. I worked on the outer surface of the adapter for the most part, but gave the inner bearing surface a clean the the wire wool as well. The trick here is that you want it to be tight, but not so bad that you can't get it on at all. I went slowly, took about an hour (I did both adapters). When I got done, I could slide the bearing on very carefully and it wouldn't get hung up, but I had to be careful and a slight rotation helped. To be clear - this shouldn't "slip" on and off, even after I got done, the bearing and adapter would bind up if you didn't have them aligned properly. The advantage was that getting them apart again was easier. Make sure you have a nice fit because you don't want to wait until you have your wheel seal on and everything covered in grease to discover the bearing wont go on or seat properly.

2) Again with tolerances - the fit from the spindle itself to the inner surface of the adapter is also very tight. I was able to slide one side on to about 1/4 inch from the mounting surface, so that was ok, the other side however was still a good inch at least away. Again, I used sandpaper - but a little more aggressive grit - 220 and I may have even started with 180. I worked on the spindle itself - you only want to clean it up really, not remove a bunch of material - so check your fit often to be sure you don't go to far. Once I could get it on within a 1/4 inch, I called it good.

Image

3) How do you seat the adapter that extra 1/4 inch? With a mallet of course! I used a piece of 8 X 1 &12 inch pipe (bought from Lowes) slid it over the spindle and used a RUBBER mallet to TAP the adapter on the rest of the way. If done correctly, you shouldn't need to use a sledge or anything - you risk damaging the adapter or putting it on crooked - and good luck getting it back off if you've smashed it on. I hit it firmly, but not at a full swing or anything. Both adapters seated nicely without any fuss.

Here is a picture of the install

Image

Now - the brackets. There seem to be many different types of bracket used, these one look to be well made and out of the proper gauge material. Despite the dismal instructions, they installed easily enough.

Image
Image

Finally on this round, a shot of the rotors installed. I probably don't need to cover packing bearings and installing the wheel seal, but obviously I did that.
Image

So thats it for this installment, next I think we'll look at the calipers - that's when I encountered the first of more than a few issues!
Last edited by Treozen on Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Current Classic Garage (or money pits):
1957 Chevy Belair
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1978 Corvette
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1976 Camaro
1983 Jaguar XJ6 (converted)
1966 Cadillac
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Tbirdgul
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Post by Tbirdgul »

This is great. Thanks for the details. Like so many before me, I am considering a front disc brake conversion. I was curious. Was there any reason you chose this kit over the one from Larry's Tbird or Tbird Ranch? It seems like no one offers instructions to install. for someone like myself, your write up helps with understanding the hidden challenges. Everyone I've talked to that sells these kits describes it as a couple hours of garage work with no special tools or torches required. Keep the info coming and Thanks !!!
Tony Gul - Southern California
VTCI# 13062
1964 Thunderbird hardtop black with white roof - current
1964 Thunderbird hardtop copper - 1986
edpol
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Post by edpol »

Excellent. Some of the ebay sellers say the spindles need light machining. You're showing that sandpaper, steel wool and elbow grease are sufficient.
Looks like a good time to change the anti-sway bar bushings while there's plenty of access.
Treozen
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Post by Treozen »

I was curious. Was there any reason you chose this kit over the one from Larry's Tbird or Tbird Ranch?
Yes, three reasons:

1) Reputation. Auto City Classic has a good reputation for its kits and general service. I did a bit of research and while it was only based on opinions, and opinions of other kits they had made (so not specifically the one I bought) general consensus was that they made a good product. Not to say that Larry's or T-Bird ranch don't, but I wasn't able to locate reviews of their disk brake kit.

2) The bracket solution used here looked better than the one-piece variation I've seen. NO idea if it IS better, I'd need to have both in hand, but from looking at it, the solution used by Auto City Classic (identical to the bracket used by T-Bird Ranch) looked to be the better choice.

3) Price. I paid $650 shipped to my door. No other kit I looked at was as complete for the price, and the drilled rotors, while not necessary, were a nice extra that is not typically offered. Both kits you mention as alternates do not include the Proportioning Valve, Master Cylinder or Booster - prop valve is required as is the Master Cylinder (some may argue with me on that, but I'd win :smile:) - and you might find one to fit the stock booster, but I can't say for sure.
Everyone I've talked to that sells these kits describes it as a couple hours of garage work with no special tools or torches required
Don't believe a word of it. I don't mean to intimidate you or anything but I've never met a "bolt on kit" that was a bolt on. This kit took me three days, the brakes still aren't 100%, and I've done this before. In principle it's easy, but in practice there's a lot more to it. They also don't tell you about what's missing - for example, you'll need a proportioning valve for sure and you'll need to run new lines - even if you get lucky and can bend your existing lines around, you'll still need to make some for the prop valve - that requires a tubing flare tool at minimum - its not expensive or hard to do, but its a tool you probably don't have unless you have done brake lines or fuel lines before - I'd call that a special tool. In my view, what they mean by "a couple hours of garage work" is that you can bolt their stuff on in that time - but that absolutely does not mean you are rolling out of the garage after a single afternoon.

Nothing you need to do is that hard or something first-timer couldn't handle, but unless you get real lucky, it wont be a simple bolt-on job and roll out in a few hours.

Excellent. Some of the ebay sellers say the spindles need light machining. You're showing that sandpaper, steel wool and elbow grease are sufficient.
Looks like a good time to change the anti-sway bar bushings while there's plenty of access.
Yea - the "machining" in my case was that the '63 spindle is two thick to take the outer bearing supplied for the '61 and '62, the simple solution was to use an A34 bearing instead, as recommended by Auto City Classic themselves. As for the sway bar - I plan on upgrading it to the better version so it will be replaced eventually. I just did the tie rods, sleeves, ball joints, center link and Idler arm...I had to draw the line someplace :mrgreen:
Current Classic Garage (or money pits):
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Treozen
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Ok - Caliper talk....

Post by Treozen »

So ..Calipers.....

I'm 99.99999% sure the calipers are Chevy S10. They look like S10 and more to the point, I test fit a set of s10 calipers I bought myself and they fit like a glove. All the kits I've seen appear to use the exact same caliper - unless you go more expensive and want a dual or quad piston set-up.

This is a good thing because GM used this caliper on the S10, its GMC variant the S15 and various other GM truck / SUVs from 1982 through at least 1995 which means they are available at the local parts places ...and for about $15 each (plus core).

Unfortunately, as the "Fine Young Cannibals" once said - "good thing, where have you gone"?

The calipers I got with the kit, didn't fit. Yes that's right - didn't fit and the reason the didn't fit was clear as day. A simple test fit by Auto City Classic would have identified the issue, because honestly, Stevie Wonder on his worst day could have seen the problem....let me illustrate:

Image

Now, you might be thinking - "so grind it off" and in essence you're right, but this is supposed to be a bolt on kit, designed for this car, and to work with the brackets provided. The fact that Auto City Classic couldn't make sure the calipers they sent fit their own bracket, was more than a little disconcerting. I also noticed that in the picture they used to advertise the kit, the caliper does not have this casting bump. This was to be somewhat of an omen of things to come.

I reacted (as I usually do) by being very irritated and not thinking clearly. So rather than just cut off the bump, I decided to abandon the calipers entirely and get something else. I did a bit of research and found that it seems these calipers did not always have this bump - perhaps OEM don't but anything available as a re-manufactured or new does? In either case, I also discovered that the 4X4 version of the caliper (same truck, same year) didn't have the bump - so I bought those. BUT another issue.....the 4X4 calipers have the rubber brake hose coming out of the top, rather than the bottom. This means the hose is in real danger of catching on the sway-bar link and even if you "fixed" that, the angles the hose would need to achieve while turning seemed a little extreme. So with a clear head the following day.......

Image

I tried a straight grind - it would have taken forever. I've really no idea why I didn't think about the hacksaw earlier,...well...except that I was blind with fury :evil: but the next day I just naturally thought "why not cut it off you idiot" and the hack saw worked wonderfully - almost as though its made to cut metal...... :roll: It took mere minutes and I got this:

Image

and then with some help from my angle grinder...

Image
Image

This resolved the issue and the caliper fit perfectly. It took no more than 10 minutes to "fix it" so that everything lined up. So when all is said and done - not a big deal in reality, but in principle....come-on Auto City Classic...REALLY?


So...that's Calipers. Last point of note here - the calipers I received with the kit did not have any part markings. I believe they are part number P4071 (autozone) as that part number is a loaded pair of calipers and the only ones I can find in the silver paint. The limited instructions do provide one important point, make sure you install the calipers on the proper side - with these ones lacking an "L" or "R" or a part number, the way to know the proper side is to make sure you install the caliper so that the bleeder valve is at the top (and in this case your rubber brake hose will attach to the bottom). If you accidentally put them on the wrong side, chances are everything will fit, but you'll never get the air out and you'll be bleeding the brakes forever (ask me how I know that). If you buy the calipers yourself (part numbers provided at the top of the thread) or get a different kit, chances are you'll get a caliper with a "L" or "R" designation.

P.S: Left / Right is determined by the drivers position as though driving the car - so Passenger side is RIGHT, Drivers side is LEFT.
Current Classic Garage (or money pits):
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Post by Steverino »

This forum needs a "Like" button! Since there's none, you'll just see a lot of emoticons & exclamation points... :mrgreen:

Thank you for this great writeup!!!! I have a caliper swap on my list of projects and this info will be invaluable. Looking forward to hearing/seeing the rest of the story.

Again, thanks for taking the time to do such a thorough job. If you're ever in Central PA, I'll buy you your beverage of choice! :cool:
Steve
'62 Landau

There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"...
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Treozen
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Post by Treozen »

This forum needs a "Like" button! Since there's none, you'll just see a lot of emoticons & exclamation points... :mrgreen:

Thank you for this great writeup!!!! I have a caliper swap on my list of projects and this info will be invaluable. Looking forward to hearing/seeing the rest of the story.

Again, thanks for taking the time to do such a thorough job. If you're ever in Central PA, I'll buy you your beverage of choice! :cool:

Sure thing! - If it helps a few folks get their cars back on the road, or on the road the way they want, it?s worth it. When I think back to all the help I've received over the years on my cars from forums just like this one (and including this one) this is my way of "paying it forward".

This seems to be one of those jobs that many people have done, but few can remember quite how - and I've seen that same scenario across all brands of classic car - perhaps the experience is so traumatic that people block it out? In any case, I figured I'd end up in the same boat, so at least this way its documented before I forget everything.
Current Classic Garage (or money pits):
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1978 Corvette
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1983 Jaguar XJ6 (converted)
1966 Cadillac
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Post by edpol »

I read somewhere else about the bump, can't remember where. Maybe ebay? Seller said some calipers have a node that needs to be ground off. Most of the kits seem to have Granada rotors and S10 calipers.
What would be nice, if there was a kit for '63-'64 Birds, that allowed you to separate the drums from the hub, then use a more modern rotor, or maybe the same rotors used on the rear kits.
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Post by Steverino »

It's funny that you mention how folks have done the conversion but forgotten the details. Lately there have been a couple of questions / topics come up here on the forum where I've done the task but can't remember exactly how. Had to go digging around for receipts or pics or something to jog my memory. And I'm only 44! :roll: Sigh. I blame it on my kids.
Steve
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Treozen
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Booster time....

Post by Treozen »

Ok, time to tackle the booster.

****EDIT 6/6/13****
In an effort to keep things together, and since the rest of the thread (as they tend to do) has taken a bit of a turn away from discussion on specific installation of this kit, I?m making the edit here so that future readers won?t have to trawl through three or more pages of loosely-related banter ;-)

The update is that the 7-inch booster is too small in my opinion, and that opinion is generally shared ?out there? on the inter-webs for a vehicle as heavy as the 63 T-Bird. There are other things you could do but the easiest might be to install a 9? booster ? and that?s what I?ve done. A 9? booster will be about the same as a dual-diaphragm 7? in terms of power assist, but the dual diaphragm boosters are physically longer and when using the master cylinder as in this kit, along with the original booster bracket, you just won?t have room. The 9? fits perfectly though and the only modification was that I had to shorten the threaded rod in the back of the 9? booster so that the length of the threaded rod was the same as that of the 7? ? so hacksaw, cut-off wheel, etc ? nothing crazy. The 9? booster I used was an aftermarket booster ? same or similar brand as the 7? ? very common to find them in hotrod magazines or the web- ebay as well if you?re into ebay. I bought mine from ebay as ?slightly used?. Since I wasn?t sure it would fit I didn?t want to buy a new one, ? but it does fit and as an added bonus, also works just fine. I need to adjust the booster to M/C pushrod to account for some pedal travel, but regardless of any adjustments I still need to make, you?ll be happier with the 9? booster and I?d recommend it over the 7?. Note that the modifications and installation as below all apply to a 9", only thing that changes is the size of the booster :smile:


The good news is that if you have a 65 mustang, chances are this booster (7") will fit!....whats that? this is a Thunderbird forum?........

Somebody should have had that conversation with Auto City Classic....( actually somebody did...me.....I sent a very nice email, to which they have yet to reply....) but I digress....lets get down to it....

The first thing I need to do is ask for forgiveness - by the time I figured out what needed to be done - (which ended up being simple, but I was tired and hungry and annoyed, so it took longer) I had forgotten to take pictures ::oops:

So instead, I searched the vast inter-web for appropriate pictures that would let me illustrate the steps, and then stole them :badgrin:

OK - this is actually the exact booster that comes with the kit - picture comes from the kit itself, I just didn't take it.
Image

So whats wrong with it...well....

1) Either the bracket is on upside down, or, the bracket is designed for a different make of car. In the picture, the "pivot point - (item 1) is at the top, it should be at the bottom. I've rarely seen a booster mounted as shown in the picture - for one thing, the angle of the bracket tends to push the booster further down into the engine bay rather than lift it up, which is also more typical. Either way, point is, the only way to mount the booster in this configuration was to turn it upside down....not that it mattered...see item 2:

2) Regardless of how (or if) you mounted the booster, the rod was several inches too short. A quick comparison to the stock rod made that clear.....but again, rather a moot point, see item 3:

3) The bolt holes did not line up to the fire wall holes - period. I don't care if it was upside down and too short, it wasn't getting bolted in anyway. An added frustration was that the original bracket had pressed-in bolts so that you could A) get the nuts on the other side fairly easily and B) not drop (and consequently, loose) bolts out of the holes every time you nudge the booster.

So long story short - clearly this was an assumption made by Auto City Classic...."if it fits other fords, it will work for the T-Bird" :onlyamother:

The solution was actually very simple, but since I wasn't aware of all the "upside-down, too short, wont mount anyway" issues, I had to work my way through them to get to it. so..whats the solution?.....quite simply, mount the new booster to the old bracket. :idea:

First, remove the bracket from the new booster, including all the linkage, you'll be changing that too. You'll end up with this:

Image

Next, lets look at the old bracket and linkage...
Image

1) You want to attach the booster push-rod to this linkage. Item 3 here indicates that you may need to run a spacer or two on each side - I used washers - all they need do is take up some of the space and center the push rod.

2) Here is where you need to do a bit of modification. The old booster's mounting studs are a little further apart top to bottom, so the holes in the bracket will not line up with the new booster's studs. The good news is that its close - you probably only have to elongate the bottom holes a 1/4 inch - the yellow highlight marks the spots. I used a Dremel tool with a grinder bit. Best thing to do is put the bracket on the top booster mounting studs and then see how much you need to enlarge the bottom holes. You can of course do the reverse, modify the upper holes.

The fit is tight because the center bore of the new booster seems a bit larger than the old one, but it does fit. In an unfortunate bit of strategy on my part, I had previously removed one of the pressed in studs on the old bracket by unceremoniously whacking it with a hammer. This did two things - removed the bolt and bent the mounting plate a bit. As a result, my bracket didn't quite line up with the firewall holes anymore, and I had to bend it back into shape - my point in telling you this is that while I don't think you'll need to do the same, I can't be sure the width of the new booster mounting studs wasn't slightly narrow versus the old, so you may also need a minor tweak to get your bolts to line up - but very minor.

Ultimately, you'll get something like this:

Image

NOTE: This picture does not show the correct mounting bracket (stock '63 at this point in the build) but it is close enough for me to point out the important parts.

1) be sure you have installed the bracket with the pivot point down.
2) Make sure you have added the necessary spacers and used either the cotter pin or retaining clip so that the booster push-rod stays put.
3) Don't forget the spacers! There are 4 spacers that go between the booster and mounting bracket - they are thicker than those shown here, but same function and location.

4) Number four has nothing to do with the booster, but its a good time to tell you about another modification. The "proper" mounting location for the proportioning valve using the bracket provided in the kit, is on the stud that mounts the master cylinder to the booster (as shown with transparent prop valve). However, there is no room to do this because the shock tower is in the way. The simple solution is to locate the prop valve a few inches further back and then use the bottom booster-to-bracket mounting stud instead. You wont be able to use the provided Prop valve to Master Cylinder metal lines, but you've no choice really and making new lines that fit is easy enough.

Lastly - I felt some of the linkage lacked the free-play of the old booster - again it could be that the bracket was narrower than before. Everything worked, but seemed tighter - so I applied some good lubricant to the moving parts - pivot point and push-rod link mostly.

I installed the booster and hooked up the brake pedal -everything seems to work and function well with no hangups or issues - works very smoothly.

Here is a shot of it installed in my car:
Image

Well - that's the booster. Next I think I'll cover the proportioning valve and brake lines, so, look for that soon.
:mrgreen:
Last edited by Treozen on Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Current Classic Garage (or money pits):
1957 Chevy Belair
1963 Thunderbird
1978 Corvette
1979 Ford F250

Prior Money Pits:
1976 Camaro
1983 Jaguar XJ6 (converted)
1966 Cadillac
edpol
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Post by edpol »

That's some good info. You saved some guys a lot of time and hassle. Just a reminder for my fellow memory challenged members - bookmark this thread.
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Steverino
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Post by Steverino »

That's some good info. You saved some guys a lot of time and hassle. Just a reminder for my fellow memory challenged members - bookmark this thread.
Hey, you talkin' to ME? :mrgreen:
Steve
'62 Landau

There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"...
VTCI #11678
edpol
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:26 pm

Post by edpol »

Hey, you talkin' to ME?
I don't know. I forgot what we're talkin' about. :lol:
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