The Disk Brake Diary.....Thread covering Disk swap on a '63

edpol · Post by **edpol** » Sun May 12, 2013 6:30 pm

Had the opportunity today to drive a '62 with a Granada/S10 conversion. Stopping power at 50 mph was MUCH better than the drum brakes.
Honestly, I was a bit skeptical about how much the improvement would be, but now I'm convinced, these are quite adequate for stock cars. This car had a '72 F150 MC and prop valve from Summit. I believe the booster is original.
I don't think they'd hold up if driving real hard, but for those of us that stay under 60 mph with these cars, they're fine.

Driven1 · Post by **Driven1** » Thu May 16, 2013 11:13 am

After your installation would you still go with the kit you chose or consider Tbird ranch or others? Also, can you use your stock 14in wheels with the kit?

Treozen · Post by **Treozen** » Thu May 16, 2013 9:03 pm

After your installation would you still go with the kit you chose or consider Tbird ranch or others? Also, can you use your stock 14in wheels with the kit?

Quick update folks -

I went through the rear brakes and did another pressure bleed. Long story short, pedal is better but still not right and rears will lock up, fronts wont. I did take it up on the highway though for the first time, the brakes were OK for a quick sunday 1-exit cruise.

I've come to find out that the remaining issues (non-locking front wheels, squishy pedal) might be caused by the low drag GM calipers. I won?t go into all the details until I?m sure that?s the issue, but I ordered some aftermarket calipers from US Brake (that also feature a bigger piston) and I'll install this weekend and report back.

@Driven1: Standard 14inch wheels will not fit with this kit, and there are very few kits (if any) where a standard 14inch wheel will fit. There are 14 inch wheels from other vehicles out there designed to fit with disk brakes, but you won?t be able to run the stock ?61-?63 wheels. I believe you can use later T-Bird parts for a disk swap and run a stock 14 inch wheel ? but don?t quote me on that.

Would I still order this kit? Depends?.I firmly believe no kit is truly ?bolt on? and at $650 +/- for the kit there?s some room for forgiveness in terms of how well the kit goes together. Over all, though, no, I wouldn?t recommend it ? but mostly because of the poor customer service, terrible instructions and what I see as a complete disregard for the customer. All in all ? this kit does get you disk brakes, and even when considering new calipers and the residual pressure valve, I?m only at around $800 ? which is just about the going rate for most other kits - and by looking at them, I see no reason to assume you wouldn?t end up with similar issues (though customer service might be better ?it could hardly be worse). My recommendation on this kit would also depend a lot on to whom I was recommending it ? have some experience with this sort of thing? ? sure go for it, just know that you?re really buying the spindle adaptor and bracket and that some mods are necessary. If you?re new to this though ? perhaps not. I?ve tried to give a pretty detailed walk through in this thread, but it can?t replace experience. I?d also recommend a kit that uses the earlier Chevelle caliper rather than the metric GM caliper - mid 70?s caliper is bigger, just as available, and most importantly, NOT low drag ? most of the kits I looked at were based on the GM metric caliper however.

edpol · Post by **edpol** » Thu May 16, 2013 10:16 pm

Did you use pad spacers in the calipers? Some kits include the use of them in the instructions, some don't. The reason for them is that GM rotors are almost 3/16" thicker than the Granada rotors.
The guy who owns the car I drove a few days ago, said they made a big difference. I'm not exactly sure what they are. I didn't pay much attention since I'm not using Granada rotors.
I'm also going to try the bigger GM caliper. The piston area is slightly larger than the metric "big bore", and the pads are substantially larger. I'm told they have a lower profile as well. (We'll see about that.)
If they work with 14" wheels, I'll be a happy camper. They will be more in line with '68 Galaxie brakes, except the rotor is about 3/4" smaller in diameter. (The Galaxie calipers BTW, didn't work with 14" wheels)

Treozen · Post by **Treozen** » Fri May 17, 2013 1:09 am

Did you use pad spacers in the calipers? Some kits include the use of them in the instructions, some don't. The reason for them is that GM rotors are almost 3/16" thicker than the Granada rotors.
The guy who owns the car I drove a few days ago, said they made a big difference. I'm not exactly sure what they are. I didn't pay much attention since I'm not using granada rotors

No, my ego got in the way of using the spacer

When I installed the calipers I had just got done fighting with the caliper fitment issues and having never seen a spacer before, I arrogantly chalked them up to yet another thing wrong with the kit and tossed them into my "junk bucket". I found out about spacers a week or so ago, they're typically used where the caliper is to be fitted on a 0.810 rotor. In my case, the rotor is 0.875 initial thickness, but thats still less than the discard thickness of the stock GM rotor the calipers are designed for. I measured the spacers I have at 3/16, which by design or chance, results in the exact same fitment correction you'd get when using an 0.810 rotor and a standard spacer - there are different sizes but I think 1/4 inch was the most common. Spacers typically come in two flavors, round spacer that fits into the caliper piston or a plate design that basically looks like the backing plate from a brake pad, minus friction material.

SO you might ask......if i know the spacer is missing, why get new calipers? Well....its a no lose bet. The spacers might fix the problem, but my guess is it would be temporary. If my current calipers are low drag, and its very liklely, the problem I have will return as soon as the pads have worn some. Additionally, while I might get a firm pedal, I doubt it would be high - Im still having to move more fluid than normal, and so the pedal will probably travel more than ideal. Low drag calipers are supposed to be used with a step-bore master cylinder, also called "quick take-up". They basically have a 2 stage approach - first stage delivers low pressure but high volume of fluid to move the caliper piston out to contact the rotor (which is about where normal calipers start) and then the 2nd stage takes over and delivers the pressure to actualy clamp the disk. There seems to be no definitive answer on whether a power-assist regular master cylinder can do the job, but a trouble shooting FAQ I found on the Master Power Brakes website makes their opinion clear, Quote "You'll never get a pedal". So, with that and other opinions I found, I decided to eliminate the Low Drag caliper as a factor with the additional upside that the new calipers have a bigger piston - claimed +20% stopping power versus stock. With our cars being around 1000lbs heavier than the cars these brakes were designed to stop, I'll take that 20%.

Now does that mean no spacer? Not exactly......the rotor is still very thin versus the stock rotor the caliper is designed for, and you dont want your caliper's piston popping out when the pads get low, so chances are a spacer is still needed - that said, they are fairly cheap, available and best as I can tell, you could make one yourself using the back plate from an old pad, provided it gives you the thickness needed. I dont know if i can use the spacers I have with the new calipers- the piston bore might be too big, but thats an easy fix down the road.

Now I say this all BEFORE Ive actually made the swap, I'll find out if all that theory applies in the real world this weekend.

edpol · Post by **edpol** » Fri May 17, 2013 10:27 am

Certainly sounds good. Your explanation of the spacers makes sense. I'm going with the larger GM caliper, explanation in my "Another Disc Brake Conversion" thread.

novanutcase · Post by **novanutcase** » Fri May 17, 2013 3:48 pm

When I did the '65 KH DB swap it cost me $300 in parts for the following off of ebay:

'65 spindles/rotors/calipers/master

I spent around $300 cleaning up the calipers, replacing rubber boots/pistons, new brake hoses and turning the rotors.

Spent another $200 or so on miscellaneous stuff like prop valve, sender, etc and I spent another $50 powdercoating the calipers, spindles, rear shield and miscellaneous small parts.

Since it was pretty much a bolt in affair there were no surprises for the most part so aggravation level was fairly low on this install. I already had the big wheels so I didn't have to worry about caliper clearance. Car stopped much better although I still wish Wilwood made a kit for the car. As satisfied as I was with the swap I would have preferred having a 4 pot front caliper rather than a 2 pot like the KH's are.

Just thought I'd throw that out there for those that are trying to decide which way to go.

John

RedBird64 · Post by **RedBird64** » Fri May 17, 2013 6:16 pm

John, when you say you have the "big" wheels, are you referring to the ones you have now or the stock 15" wheels found on 64~66 Birds?

Thanks,
Scott

edpol · Post by **edpol** » Fri May 17, 2013 8:06 pm

When was that? Closest I've seen in the last year, was a pair of rusted out calipers and rotors for $150. Spindles cheap are $100 plus shipping. Repair kits for calipers $30 for both. Last price I got for cutting rotors was three years ago, $15 each. Pads are $20-$30. Add to that the cost of pistons, 8 of them. KH calipers are notorious for the pistons sticking due to rust. After all the trouble I had with my Lincoln years ago, I'd have to insist on stainless steel pistons. That was the cure for all my problems.
KH calipers for Tbirds & Lincolns, as well as the smaller ones for Mustangs and Dodge Darts, are 4 piston. (see links below) When they're rebuilt with top quality components, they're very good calipers.
So, even buying used parts, and assuming the pistons were good, the best I could do was about $560 with SS pistons, plus the cost of new tires AND wheels. I could get steel 15" wheels for about $125 including a spare. Wheels and the cheapest tires come to another $440 or so.
Keeping the 14" wheels also allows the car to look original , like this one (same color):

http://www.turnerautomotive.com/1963_th ... _coupe.htm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CENTRIC-141-610 ... f8&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CENTRIC-141-610 ... 3b&vxp=mtr

ozbird · Post by **ozbird** » Fri May 17, 2013 10:58 pm

I did the same as John but if you can, grab the lower control arm as it makes it easier still. Reason is the steering stop is different to the earlier control arms and you have to make up a new stop. Not difficult but again, as John mentioned, easier to convert.

You do see these parts coming on eBay a bit, but not as often as we used to.

I am reasonably happy with my setup but am going to be installing Hydroboost and will do as you guys have done, document it all.

Graeme

novanutcase · Post by **novanutcase** » Fri May 17, 2013 11:12 pm

John, when you say you have the "big" wheels, are you referring to the ones you have now or the stock 15" wheels found on 64~66 Birds?

Thanks,
Scott

Yes, the chrome mags in the sig pic.

I did the same as John but if you can, grab the lower control arm as it makes it easier still. Reason is the steering stop is different to the earlier control arms and you have to make up a new stop. Not difficult but again, as John mentioned, easier to convert.

You do see these parts coming on eBay a bit, but not as often as we used to.

I am reasonably happy with my setup but am going to be installing Hydroboost and will do as you guys have done, document it all.

Graeme

Good call Graeme! Yes, DEFINITELTY get the lower arm. That I bought separately. I don't remember what I paid but add that in.

Ed - I got the Ebay stuff about 6 years ago. The seller was going to install them on his Galaxy but decided otherwise.

John

edpol · Post by **edpol** » Fri May 17, 2013 11:37 pm

Ed - I got the Ebay stuff about 6 years ago. The seller was going to install them on his Galaxy but decided otherwise.

I guess the parts are getting scarcer. I loved the brakes on my Lincoln when they worked, hated them when they stuck. I didn't use it much, because I worked a lot and used my truck most of the time. Then I heard about SS pistons, and had them done. (No time to rebuild myself.) Never had a problem after that.
Treozen, Since you're kit is installed, here's a look at Wilwood's GM lineup. Scroll down, you'll see one with a 2.75" piston for .81" thick rotors.

http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/Caliper ... subname=GM Single Piston

novanutcase · Post by **novanutcase** » Sat May 18, 2013 12:56 am

Interesting that nobody has talked about having MP built a custom kit, this will be my way of approaching the brake conversion, a nice set of 13" rotors and a large 4 piston caliper up front to go with my 4 piston Willwood rears and a hydra boost and done is done!

Yeah its quite a bit more money, and no you cant run a 14" wheel..........which I cant really understand why one would want to a modified T-Bird anyways but too each is own I guess!

Nicely done! I wanted to run a hydroboost once the original power booster on the car gave up but it never did. Post up a tutorial with lots of pics when you get a chance. I'd like to see how you went about mounting the unit onto the firewall and how you routed and spliced in the lines to the power steering unit.

John

edpol · Post by **edpol** » Sat May 18, 2013 2:07 am

Some people want mods that don't alter the original outside look of the car. Some of the mods include reworking the radio internally while upgrading to a modern sound system, upgrading a/c systems, disc brake conversions.

Treozen · Post by **Treozen** » Sat May 18, 2013 3:01 am

Interesting that nobody has talked about having MP built a custom kit......

Yeah its quite a bit more money

Question and answer right there. An MP custom built kit is not so much "interesting", as it is, "out of scope".

I believe I read somewhere here on the forums about an MP Custom kit, and I seem to remember the price being somewhere around $2800 - near 4 times the price - granted that was a front and rear kit and I seem to remember that the member opted for fancier calipers...but even so, you can safely call it twice the price for a front-only version.

Its also "out of scope" (at least for me) for another reason - such a kit would be complete overkill. With an otherwise stock car with little performance mods or intention to do anything but drive "normally" 4-piston calipers are "1 for the braking, three for the bragging" if you ask me - This is the primary reason I didn't go with such a kit, its not even cost, its that it not necessary for my car or how I use it. Those fancy pistons and 13" rotors would be little more than bragging rights for me and I'd sooner put the $$ into the interior, and brag about that instead.

The only merit I can see in a custom kit like that for me and my application is in terms of customer support and kit fitment - Its likely that you're getting a higher degree of customer service and technical know-how - which makes for an easier - possibly even true, bolt on kit.

Now in the interests of full disclosure - there are, EASILY, about a billion times where I've over built, over bought and generally "gone big" when something far cheaper and simpler would have worked - so I'm not saying there is anything wrong whatsoever about going with an MP custom kit - but I don't think its particularity surprising that few people readily consider it an option.