1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

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s1nemesis1s
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1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by s1nemesis1s » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:07 am

Hello All,

I was able to get my heater core installed last night, yay! However, I have been having problems with heat and my carb - I would like to delete the carb spacer that coolant goes through.

1. Is this even possible? I would like to go back with a spacer from Eldebrock and have that be the only spacer.

2. How hard is it to remove this plate, do the studs have to come out?

3. I see where the water pump goes into the manifold in the front, and my heater hose is run from the other water pump outlet into the back of the spacer - what is the correct routing? I have looked on the internet and shop manual and have not found any diagrams. I saw a Y joint I may be missing? My water pump was totally bypassed

4. I noticed in the shop manual that the PCV like system seems to exhaust through the middle of this plate - if I delete the plate what is the best way to reroute this to the engine?

Thanks!

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sseebart
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by sseebart » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:31 am

Others have done this, so it's entirely possible. The plate just slides up and off the studs once it's cleared of connections. You may need different length studs to accommodate the new plate, depending on the thickness. I'm not sure, though, that you're going to get the results you want.

There's some controversy over the function of the heated plate, but consensus is that it brings the carb quickly up to operating temperature, then acts to actually cool it once the engine is warm.

I'm not entirely sure, not having done it, but believe you could pull vacuum for the PCV from any manifold source of the correct size. You'll need some new vacuum fittings, certainly.

My 64, which is a non-A/C car, doesn't have the Y joint either, but I'm a little lost in the description of your heater hose routing. On my car, the water pump outlet is connected directly to the heater core. Another hose connects the fitting on the manifold to the plate. A third hose connects the back of the plate to the heater core.
IMG_20181013_142127-1024x768.jpg
~Steve

s1nemesis1s
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by s1nemesis1s » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:45 pm

Hey Steve,
Thank you for the awesome reply.

I am not sure I can explain correctly so I will use your picture.

So if I want to bypass the plate does my setup look like it is correct:

1. Orange line/hose going to the left side of the heater core - if you are facing the motor - coming from the little outlet that screws in on the water pump.

*The red X is over the plate showing it taken out of the equation.

2. Yellow line/hose running from that outlet on the intake and running directly to the right side of the heater core - if you are facing the motor.

Does the blue line/hose actually pull vacuum or is it dumping excess into the base plate area to be burnt? If it is not pulling a vacuum couldn't I put a small breather on the end of it and let it expel its nastiness naturally lol?
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stubbie
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by stubbie » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:35 am

I think you guys are missing the y pipe. I'm not sure on flow direction the way you have it, that way might work I'm not sure.
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RAVEN
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by RAVEN » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:12 am

This is a NON A/C car no Y pipe used. Your flow diagram should work. The only thing is you will not have carb choke heat compensation for your 4100 unit if still using it.
Also the PCV port will be lost from the old base, but can be jury rigged by other vac port means to your choice. V meaning VACUUM.
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s1nemesis1s
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by s1nemesis1s » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:31 am

Excellent! I was planning on using a 1/2 inch edelbrock spacer for the carb, Not sure where to pull the vacuum from (open to any and all suggestions) but I am sure I will find something. I appreciate the help guys!

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sseebart
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by sseebart » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:38 am

You should be able to pull vacuum from the port on the manifold, seen here right above the #3 cylinder. You'll need to figure out some fittings, but I'm sure it can be done.
IMG_20160720_155948548-1024x576.jpg
If you're still using an Autolite with the heated choke, you could certainly run the new hose up to the thermostat.

~Steve

s1nemesis1s
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by s1nemesis1s » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:05 pm

Thank you for clear shot steve! My car came with the eldelbrock 1406 that was is "okay" shape - I ended up rebuilding it and selling it...then buying a new 1406:) LOL. Its nice to have a new one though, and I got a SUPER deal on it. I think the brake booster is hooked up to a full manifold vacuum not on the carb - wonder if I could hook this pcv valve directly to the back in the pcv port? What do you all think? I mean it has a plug in it now.

Terry64HT
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by Terry64HT » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:41 pm

The Edelbrock carb has 3 ports on the front base; a timed one for emission controlled distributor advance, an untimed one for non-emission and a port in the center for the PCV hose. I mounted my PCV valve on a fabricated plate at the rear of the engine and brought 3/8" fuel line up to the front port on the carb base and then took the vacuum for everything else from a fitting in the port as shown in Steve's post. Mine is an A/C car, so instead of removing the Y-fitting and return, I just looped a hose along the side of the carb and back. If your carb is electric choke everything else is much simpler.
I went with a 1" phenolic spacer because I was concerned that a thinner one would not isolate the carb enough. Now, although, I see quite a few products with insulating material sandwiched between two sheets of aluminum, often with ears front and back to dissipate more heat. Don't know how well they work, but they sure are thin.
Hope this helps
Terry
64HT

s1nemesis1s
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by s1nemesis1s » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:23 pm

Terry64HT wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:41 pm
The Edelbrock carb has 3 ports on the front base; a timed one for emission controlled distributor advance, an untimed one for non-emission and a port in the center for the PCV hose. I mounted my PCV valve on a fabricated plate at the rear of the engine and brought 3/8" fuel line up to the front port on the carb base and then took the vacuum for everything else from a fitting in the port as shown in Steve's post. Mine is an A/C car, so instead of removing the Y-fitting and return, I just looped a hose along the side of the carb and back. If your carb is electric choke everything else is much simpler.
I went with a 1" phenolic spacer because I was concerned that a thinner one would not isolate the carb enough. Now, although, I see quite a few products with insulating material sandwiched between two sheets of aluminum, often with ears front and back to dissipate more heat. Don't know how well they work, but they sure are thin.
Hope this helps
Terry
64HT
Just figured out how to use the quote function - sorry guys - I am learning. Terry, it does help, it gives me more options! I think my pcv or the rudimentary pcv I have, is tied in with my booster and they feed off the back of the plate. I did some thinking after the previous post I made - I know right? Dangerous - :eek:

\I chatted with Edelbrock and they were like, year dummy you have the port on the front and the plugged port on the back to use, although they said it nicer just as you did lol. :mrgreen:

So, here is the plan - I have so much going on with this car - I took care of my mom for several years, worked full-time, and am going to grad school. Now, she is gone and I have been destroyed inside - this thundertherpy has helped me so much, but I have so many projects going now. I am on a kick with relays now, I learned how they work and now I want to put a relay on everything - put a light in, bam a relay, grab a beer -- better but a relay in it. :bday:

So here is the plan - I am going to remove the carb and valve covers. Sand as much as possible on the manifold and scrape the cheap paint off, spray it with the high temp primer I have, and paint it gold, tbird gold - or close enough - ceramic paint. Then off come the valve covers, they are getting a coat of gold as well. Water pump - coat of blue, brand new expansion tank - coat of blue. Of course, remove all the heater hose mess. Installed my new aluminum radiator, run the transmission lines to it, install the carb with the 1/2 spacer - hope that is enough - and run all brand new lines. Might as well go ahead and paint the power steering pump...maybe. Then start it up and make sure I have no leaks and the car runs okay. Check my timing and rest. After this, I am going to remove the old cruddy fusebox, and upgrade the fusebox and all that - install my Cadillac horns along with my huge relay box, hook up my intellitronix unit, and see how the car runs - oh and add the 16 inch pusher fan too - oh and also make the new harness for my headlights and do the relay upgrade for brighter light. That should keep me busy until cold weather.

After that - gonna rebuild the steering column, bought the parts - and I am sure I will have questions :oops: :smile:
After this suspension work:)
I have a plan, we shall see how it goes. Probably will have other questions along the way.

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RedBird64
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by RedBird64 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:07 pm

You don't need to do anything with the spacer if you just don't want coolant going through it. Simply remove the heater hoses and leave it as-is. It will work fine.
Or even better, replace it with another 1" spacer made of Phenolic material.
But what ever you do, keep a spacer in the mix. It is advantageous to performance and fuel efficiency.

Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

s1nemesis1s
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by s1nemesis1s » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:10 am

RedBird64 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:07 pm
You don't need to do anything with the spacer if you just don't want coolant going through it. Simply remove the heater hoses and leave it as-is. It will work fine.
Or even better, replace it with another 1" spacer made of Phenolic material.
But what ever you do, keep a spacer in the mix. It is advantageous to performance and fuel efficiency.

Scott
I did buy an edelbrock spacer 1/2 inch, that I was going to put back on - do you guys think that is too small? I think I can still send it back. I plan on removing the stock spacer and using this 1/2 inch spacer instead as it is apparently made from wood and will not transfer heat to the carb.

Terry64HT
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Re: 1964 Thunderbird carb base plate delete

Post by Terry64HT » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:21 pm

I think most of the phenolic spacers are wood fiber in phenolic resin, but some may be solid phenolic. However wood is a better insulator than phenolic resin which is why I think the mix is often used. In any event, for the type of use our cars get, I think either is fine. Laminated wood spacers have a phenolic coating on them, and while insulate best, have been known to crack. The only question is the thickness, and more is better. If you can fit a 1" in, it will be better than a 1/2"
Terry
64HT

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