Clarification on motor/trans pull

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paulr
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Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by paulr » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:36 pm

On Tuesday I'm pulling both motor and trans together. Prep is about done. I've run into one area the manual is unclear about. There's an instruction to remove the pitman arm. While that is not computing in my head, I am looking at the center link and wondering if I should take that off to allow clearance for the tail of the trans case as the cherry picker angles upward? Any advice on this or any other thoughts is welcome. And thanks.
Paul
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RAVEN
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by RAVEN » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:36 pm

Paul, I will comment in simple and frank ways. I have never removed a motor tranny combo together, so can not answer honestly. My mind tells me, the less crap in the way the better but the real battle will be the angle of the tranny tail stock and the ground clearance, as you raise the front of the motor, to clear the upper rad cross member. You may need to have the car located over a floor pit to allow the tranny tail stock to swing down into the pit to allow the block front to rise up to elevate out of the engine compartment, past the upper Rad frame member. By removing the cross link may give you the needed extra swing room for the tail stock to fold under to clear the lower cross frame.

Wally
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jtschug
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by jtschug » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:44 am

I've pulled them together with a forklift, and did not have to touch the pitman arm.

An ordinary cherry picker would not be able to lift the whole assembly high enough to get it all the way out, it could probably be done with a gantry crane. Perhaps once you have the engine and trans hanging, then you could drop the car down onto the wheels and then roll it out from under the cherry picker, I'm not sure. You will definitely need a trolley to adjust the tilt of the engine as you lift it, it takes a lot of tilt to get the oil pan to clear the rad support while the trans tail is still in the tunnel, then it needs to tilt back horizontal to get the tail to clear the rad support.

One thing I was not prepared for is all the trans fluid poring out of the back. I dumped at least three quarts on the shop floor, so either drain it before you start, or stuff a rag into the yoke hole after the driveshaft is removed.

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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by cacockrum » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:04 pm

I was able to install the engine/transmission combination in my ’66 without doing anything to the pitman arm, so I imagine that removing would be the same process in reverse. Fortunately, I have a pit in my garage so ground clearance was not an issue. I used a conventional engine hoist and a trolley so I could change the angle as needed during the process. Once the engine was resting on the cross-member, I used a jack to raise the rear of the transmission and installed the transmission support and mount. I was pleased with how smoothly the process went as I only needed a little help from my wife to make sure that the exhaust manifolds did not scratch the newly painted engine bay.
I suspect that the car will need to be jacked up to clear the ground if the pit is not an option. Alternatively, it’s not too difficult to unbolt the flex plate from the torque convertor, support the front of the transmission, and pull the engine separately. Then, either support the transmission with heavy-duty wire by fastening the bell housing to the cowl at the rear of the engine bay, or lower and slide it out from under the car.

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paulr
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by paulr » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:52 pm

cacockrum wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:04 pm

I suspect that the car will need to be jacked up to clear the ground if the pit is not an option. Alternatively, it’s not too difficult to unbolt the flex plate from the torque convertor, support the front of the transmission, and pull the engine separately. Then, either support the transmission with heavy-duty wire by fastening the bell housing to the cowl at the rear of the engine bay, or lower and slide it out from under the car.
What I would give for either a service pit or a hoist!

I thought about separating engine from transmission. The hesitation I have is jacking the car high enough to slip the trans out from below. By looking at the photo essay on Jim Wulf's site he shows a '64 engine+trans being hoisted out with a cherry picker while the car sits on the floor on 4 wheels. Apparently, the geometry permits it. But, I'm sure you are right about having the car lifted up and then down at certain points during the operation.

When it comes to installing the transmission I've been wondering about guiding the tail piece and drive shaft together cleanly while seating the engine on the motor mounts properly. I suppose that's where your service pit came in handy. How did you pull those off?
Paul
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by RAVEN » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:55 pm

Sounds like the group are all on the same page. Underside room is needed for tranny to swing into, a high lift point is a great thing, pivoting function a must, and a method to rotate the motor from horizontal to vertical is a good idea.
Me, I just unbolted the tranny from the motor and lifted it out, and supported the tranny from the cowl with eyelets and short chains. Then dropped the tranny out the bottom on a trolley jack.
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by paulr » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:59 pm

jtschug wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:44 am
I've pulled them together with a forklift, and did not have to touch the pitman arm.

An ordinary cherry picker would not be able to lift the whole assembly high enough to get it all the way out, it could probably be done with a gantry crane. Perhaps once you have the engine and trans hanging, then you could drop the car down onto the wheels and then roll it out from under the cherry picker, I'm not sure. You will definitely need a trolley to adjust the tilt of the engine as you lift it, it takes a lot of tilt to get the oil pan to clear the rad support while the trans tail is still in the tunnel, then it needs to tilt back horizontal to get the tail to clear the rad support.

One thing I was not prepared for is all the trans fluid poring out of the back. I dumped at least three quarts on the shop floor, so either drain it before you start, or stuff a rag into the yoke hole after the driveshaft is removed.
This is worth a look. http://www.tbirdgarage.com/Site_2/Techn ... al.html#20

Don't have access to a forklift and can't imagine the skill needed to finesse that operation anyway! I took off the fill tube and drained what I could but I can tell there is still some fluid left in there. Expecting a mess.
Paul
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by RAVEN » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:06 pm

Not sure but do remember the torque converter is still in the equation and it holds about 6 quarts or so. Not sure if it can possibly drain through the valve body and end out on the floor.
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by cacockrum » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:41 pm

Paul,

Do you have to remove the transmission, or can you follow Raven's suggestion to use chains to support the front end while the engine is out?
Me, I just unbolted the tranny from the motor and lifted it out, and supported the tranny from the cowl with eyelets and short chains. Then dropped the tranny out the bottom on a trolley jack.
If you must remove it, you could remove the drive shaft, support the transmission with a floor jack, remove the chains and trans support/mount, lower it as far as possible, jack the front of the car up, and slide the trans out?

Art

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paulr
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by paulr » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:13 pm

The plan is to refresh the underbody, engine bay restoration, plus, do transmission service or potential trans swap. I was looking forward to not having to separate the two under the car, but now I believe that will have to be the option I'm facing as my trusted helper is out with an unexpected injury. I'll use Wally's method to extract the transmission. On the bright side, pulling the motor solo will be much easier. I'm glad to get all this knowledge from the forum fellas. Thanks.

As it turns out I'll be faced with the same scenario in a short while when a friend will be bringing over his '65 HT for engine/trans removal. Maybe I'll get to try the dual pull on that one.
Paul
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by stubbie » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:10 am

Put the rear end of car on stands to give you some more downward at the back of transmission.

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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by RAVEN » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:59 am

Paul, if the game plan has changed to pull the motor separate, I recommend to leave the car only marginally off the ground till motor is out. Then raise the old girl to remove the tranny and drag it out.
Also be aware of the tranny cooler lines as they pass under the motor, when you lift it out, they can hook on the motor oil pan and get torn up. I have seen it happen. (Just a little hint)
There are other tricks like making sure to pull the torq Vetter as soon as the motor is out to prevent damage to the front seal also.
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1964 Sr Convertible "RAVEN"
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by paulr » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:21 am

stubbie wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:10 am
Put the rear end of car on stands to give you some more downward at the back of transmission.
Thanks Stubbie, when we get around to doing my friend's '65 I'm gonna experiment with this idea. It seems sensible in my head.
RAVEN wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:59 am
Paul, if the game plan has changed to pull the motor separate, I recommend to leave the car only marginally off the ground till motor is out. Then raise the old girl to remove the tranny and drag it out.
Also be aware of the tranny cooler lines as they pass under the motor, when you lift it out, they can hook on the motor oil pan and get torn up. I have seen it happen. (Just a little hint)
There are other tricks like making sure to pull the torq Vetter as soon as the motor is out to prevent damage to the front seal also.
Any sage advice is appreciated; thanks as always, Wally. Now, I have an exhaust system to drop!
Paul
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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by sseebart » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:22 am

paulr wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:59 pm
Expecting a mess.
And you'll get it! I'm always surprised by the surplus amount of antifreeze I find when the engine is tilted.

~Steve

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Re: Clarification on motor/trans pull

Post by rzcrisis » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:41 pm

Although it requires a dedicated person to video and may not be at the top of this list for this event, sure would be interesting to have it YouTubed for the benefit of those of us who will possibly be facing the same job in the future. So much excellent advice on this forum to add commentary to the video.....just saying.

Hope all goes well with your project Paul. Will be watching this post for sure.

Good luck!
Randy
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1963 Ford Falcon 2DR Sedan-work in progress (Canadian Survivor)

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