Radiator removal

[comrade]

I am going back to do what I should have done this past winter and that is the replacement of the radiator. Car continues to run hot so I am biting the bullet on an updated, larger core radiator.

Looks fairly straight forward, any "Gotchas" I may need to watch for on the removal? I searched the forum but did not find anything specific to this query? Anyone?

[vince]

What for fan clearance. Not on a Bird but had to replace the adapter for the fan on the water pump on another car. Good luck.

[Mheiron]

I just re-cored my original as I was sure it would at least fit. It was more expensive than a replacement though and it still didn't fit the first time. The guy charged $520 but at least the original numbers are on it.

I hit a snag when the lower radiator bracket was soldered on slightly different (rearward) from the original. The issue is the cars core support is slightly tapered in two directions and the radiator would not go down into position. It hit the core support.

Its a close fit normally and no extra room between the fan and the rad.

I hope the new rad solves your problem. These cars do like to run hot.

Does your car have a fan shroud? My '61 didn't so I added it to help it cool. I think only AC cars came with shrouds originally. I also upgraded the fan.

Take lots of picture of the fastners on the fan cover. They're all different.

Probably a good time to change the hoses while you're in there.

Good luck, Should be straightforward.

[bbogue]

I replaced my radiator with a 3-core high efficiency (bigger tubes) model from USRadiator as part of my engine rebuild several years ago. The rebuild included some performance mods and I don’t know if they were the cause but I fought overheating for quite a while. I saw 220F and higher a couple of times. To overcome this issue as well as some performance issues, my attempts at cures included:
Found and repaired several vacuum leaks.
Installed a thinner fan spacer, moving the fan partly out of the shroud.
Installed a lower temp 165F high flow thermostat.
Installed a high flow water pump.
Increased initial timing to 16 BTDC. Adjusted total timing to 36 degrees by 2500 rpms and vacuum advance to 10 degrees max. Converted to full manifold vacuum vs ported so as to have vacuum advance timing at idle. This part is somewhat controversial but many like it. I do. Thank you FE Engine Forum.
Decreased antifreeze/water ratio.
Added a pusher fan to the radiator, manually controlled.
Completely bypassed the transmission cooler in my radiator and installed a dedicated transmission cooler.
In summer, when the engine temp gets to 180F, I switch on the pusher fan. I rarely see coolant temp greater than 185F even in traffic on hot days.
I don’t have AC and don’t plan to install it. When outside temps are in the upper 80’s or higher the ‘Bird stays in the garage.

Yep. Lots of $ and time spent. But isn’t that what hobbies are for? I learned a lot along the way. Very satisfying.

Maybe something here will help. I hope so. Good luck.

Bill

[comrade]

Thank you for the excellent input, if you are a relative newbie this forum is a godsend. I found a long winded post regarding over heating in the modified section but nothing regarding radiator replacement and associated issues.

I have only ordered the radiator for now but I am prepared to pull the trigger on a pusher fan should it require such? I do have a shroud on the car but I am concerned regarding fitup with the new unit? The current engine temps run about 210 but if I have to sit in any kind of traffic I am getting nervous. A "warm" Texas spring is not making it any better.

I expect delivery next week, I will update regarding my quest for cooler operating temps. I enjoy the challenge. Thanks again for the valuable input.

[bbogue]

Comrade,
Texas? Sounds hot!
FYI, after some research I decided on a Spal pusher fan. I can look up the model number and source if you wish. Not cheap. Installation wasn’t too difficult but required some figuring as to where to locate mounting brackets, relay, wiring, switch, etc. There is a company that makes a puller fan with shroud that supposedly would work on our radiators but it’s a tight fit at best. As you may know, pullers are more efficient than pushers but require ditching the mechanical fan and installing a trigger/sensor since it would be your only fan. There’s also the loss of the original look, whereas my pusher is almost hidden. I suggest you investigate the other things I mentioned. Eliminating vacuum leaks, changing timing, changing to high flow lower temp tstat and high flow water pump were all helpful in varying degrees. Some even helped performance. Most have little impact on original look, if that’s important to you. My bypass of the radiator transmission cooler and installation of a separate trans cooler was more of an effort to improve transmission cooling than to improve engine cooling.
Good luck.

Bill

[comrade]

And so it goes, I installed new radiator yesterday morning and went back to finish up this AM (I am in TX. it was 100 by noon, I had to retreat and split up the heat exposure.) Test fit went ok until I figured out the trans cooler fitting on the new unit was 1/4 and I required a 5/16. I got past that issue easy enough but I pulled the reservoir to change out the thermostat and twisted off the bolt for the housing on the install.

I was not really putting any muscle into it so I was a wee bit surprised. So everyone knows the next step. Waiting for it to cool down so I can try and extract the remains which is sheared off quite nicely and blends in perfectly with the manifold it attaches to. Arrrrgghhh.

I forget that this car is 55 years old and that there may be some fatigue and stress from heat on many of these fasteners. I broke off two bolts changing out the exhaust manifolds last year.

For whatever reason I am unable to attach photos to this board or I would share my wonderful fortune.

To be continued

[comrade]

Update, I was 98% sure that I was not going to be able to retrieve the sheared off portion of the aforementioned bolt connecting the thermostat housing / reservoir but it took less than a few minutes once I was able to get the drill in there. Seldom has an easy out ever lived up to it's name for me but today it did.

Almost done, even with a fan blowing on me I had to retreat from the heat. Will finish up next weekend.

[comrade]

Update, finished install this past week, still running hot, changed out the thermostat to a 160, still running hot.

I contacted the fabricator of the radiator, Wizard Cooling, I basically gave my story and listened, the gentleman I spoke with walked through all of the issues with me one at a time. I had already decided on a puller shroud, which I should have done from the start. Taking some advice here I picked out a Spal fan but after talking to the tech at Wizard they have a dual fan puller style shroud they can fabricate but he is looking at options. Price is pretty close to the Spal option. I should have done this from the start, they could have built an integrated solution and I would have nothing to write about today.

I would like to place a simple pusher fan in front of the radiator but the A/C cooler makes that a wish. In the meantime I may adjust the timing and see if that helps a bit?

Through it all I am still not discouraged? This is something new for me.

[redstangbob]

sorry to add this thought so late in your adventure, but how are determining the engine temp? If you are only relying on your dash temp gauge you might be spinning your wheels. You should verify the temp of the water in the top tank with an accurate thermometer, noting the temp the stat opens, the water will drop and circulate. You said the car overheats, how hot is hot? I'd verify my temp gauge before I spent any more money. JMO, Bob C

[MN63Tbird]

I would also support Bob C's comment on dont go by the temp gauge . That both dials in that unit- the temp and fuel run off a 5 volt regulator that sits behind the clock. Depending on the quality and age of that the gauge reading can vary for the same temp. I found there is somewhat of a correlation between the fuel and temp on its range for different voltage regulators. My experience was that my fuel gauge was not going to completely full when the tank was full. Changing the regulator moved that toward full but now my temp tends to run hotter but still within the good range. As Bob said try to get an accurate temp on the top tank and return hose. Even an infrared thermometer can get you a ball park idea if you are running 160-180F. I am not sure a 160 thermostat is the right direction for overall engine operation. I believe they are suppose to be at 180.

A couple other observations my surge tank tends to find its "happy place" with level . I can add more antifreeze and drive the car and it will blow out anything above where its happy place is which is just below the little circle cut out in the left center of the surge tank. That extra it is blowing out is not overheating just finding the correct level.

Finally I used to have a 47 Ford with a Flathead V-8. Those were notorious for over heating in the 90+ degree temps. I found that adding Water Wetter to the antifreeze helped drop its temp a few degrees. I still ran with the heater full open and fan on if I got caught in a 90 degree day to add a little more cooling but never overheated. Water Weter helps reduce surface tension, cuts some bubbling from occuring and allows better coating of the internal cooling system to increase heat transfer better to the antifreeze.

MN63

[bbogue]

FWIW, my shop manual allows either a 160 or 180 degree thermostat. Fully open is shown to be about 20 degrees higher for each. I tested one of each rating and confirmed that the ones I tested behaved much like the specs require. As I live in a temperate climate and had experienced some overheating when in stop and go traffic on hot days, I switched from a 180 to 160 degree thermostat. I’m not suggesting this is a cure for overheating but it does take longer to overheat. I also like the idea of my thermostat being fully open at 180. 200 fully open is a little too hot for me.
Best wishes.

Bill

[comrade]

Thanks for the invaluable input.

Agreed on the temp gauge. As a temporary solution I hooked up an aftermarket gauge so I could watch the temp during actual driving conditions. I shot it (engine) with an infra red gauge and I was running 200 at the tank, 210 at the sending unit and water pump. The aftermarket gauge is off 5 to 10 degrees hotter so when I am driving it just serves to make me even more nervous. :-) I just rebuilt the engine so I may be overly cautious here, anything above 210 concerns me, when I arrived back home after 30 minutes I was at 220. Note: I am also running a mild cam so this is most likely not helping matters, hence my issues with adjusting the timing although I am going to try this as well, several comments in the modified section referred to the same fix.

I pulled the shroud off yesterday, still contemplating my next move, taking stock of my options. I must look like an old fool standing out there staring into the engine compartment for minutes at a time, as I roll ideas/solutions around in my head. I am doing my best to keep everything outside of the engine compartment original and the current setup looks pretty slick but I am hesitant to turn out to be the PO someone complains about when I get done with this cooling fix? I am anxious to move on and finish the interior.

I have tried to track my progress if only for my own amusement, the link to the blog is in my signature. You can see my radiator setup.

[bbogue]

Since your radiator is new, a pusher fan is not an option, assuming timing has been optimized and vacuum leaks addressed, and acknowledging your wish to retain the original appearance, it seems to me your only options now are lower temperature, high flow thermostat and high flow water pump. They helped in my case. Flowcooler (1642E) is the mfr of the pump I installed, recommended on this forum. If you go this route, be sure to remove and reseal the water pump impeller backing plate before installation.

Good luck.

Bill

[comrade]

You're reply was timely, I was just placing an order for a puller fan, I read the product info and reviews, I have zero to lose. I added the pump you referenced to the order. Thanks for the part number. I am going to be an expert on third gen T-Bird radiator removal and installation.

I hate the thought of taking apart the front of this engine again but this cooling issue was not on my mind during the rebuild.