Idler Pulley

[stubbie]

Hi and Merry Christmas to all.

I have a 64 Tbird and am installing a new aircon unit at the moment. Came to install the idler pulley and found that I am missing a spacer from behind the bracket and the pulley does not sit straight. It is out of wack both horizontally and vertically. I have read edoncon042's post from last October and have found that I also have a water pump with different size mounting boss points. Unlike Eric I don't think I can cut anything from the boss. I did think about adding a piece of tube to the shorter boss as a spacer and adding some washers to the alternator bracket but I'm not sure I will have enough room as the lower bolt in the bracket is only about 1mm off of the water pump pulley. I'm not sure if this pulley is supposed to be as close as it is. Can someone take a look at my pics and see if there is something odd about the setup and maybe give me some ideas on how to fix it .
Thanks Phil

[paulr]

If you get the entire assembly correctly installed with no missing spacers, etc., that bolt will be quite close to the pulley--I'd say mine clears 3-4 mm., though my available picture doesn't show well. Get a used spacer from Pat Wilson or Bird Nest, but don't attempt an alternate setup; altering anything by a fraction throws off additional alignments. Osborne shows an exploded diagram of parts alignment, if you can get your hands on that manual (Electrical). Be certain you have a correct water pump for the year. Sometime in MY65 engineering changed the pump. This entire pulley setup doesn't tolerate any substitutions. I added more grey hair undoing my previous owner's "improvements".

First shows the bolt head very close to pulley--it works this way. Second shows spacer installed (viewed from behind). Good luck.

[paulr]

Looking closer at your pictures. Can't see any sign of the unthreaded post which takes one of the two slots on the spacer, suggesting your idea that you have a wrong pump is correct. The stud is not removable or adjustable. Picture--
P.S. Ignore the part number, this is from a '66 Galaxie, though it's build matches the '64 Thunderbird.

[stubbie]

Hi Paul thanks for the reply. This engine had a sticker on it saying it was replaced in either 74 or 77 I can't remember which. I wonder if this is from a later model Ford with a different water pump and not a 64. I've been trying to find some numbers on the water pump but haven't found any yet. Maybe on the underside were I have not looked. I might get the engine cast numbers and check that also. If you look at the back of my idler pulley bracket at the top boss of the water pump there is nothing to cut off as Eric did to his. There is no spacer as in your pic but I can see an outline of were it used to be. Even though the bracket is not straight on the engine for some reason the alternator pulley seems to line up.
Thanks for the help Phil

[paulr]

An original water pump will have a number starting with C4SE.... it would be cast the same as my picture above. If you have a fairly new replacement pump it probably won't have any casting numbers.

Another C4SE... number would be cast into the top of the intake near the distributor if it's a '64 Tbird engine.

[RAVEN]

Just an out there kind of observation. The block colours, in the back ground is blue, and the alt does not have a closed back fan; both indicating a non original motor/pump/alt set up. I would suggest, first looking at all the castings and see if you can idenify their numbers. After you know their respective dates then the next step would be to sort out the belt alignments, which could indicate changing some items.
Since you have a 64, and a rubber rear boot is not seen on the alternator, then it leads towards a change out of some kind.
Remember, paint colours, or different alts does not mean its not original, it just indicates that some work has been done in its history.

[stubbie]

Thanks guys I will find those cast numbers today and get back here with what I find.
Cheers

[Alan H. Tast]

All of this begs the question: What is the difference(s) between the C4SE and C5AE pump housing castings? I want to think that the inlet neck for the lower radiator hose might be angled slightly differently or different lengths. The dowel location and provision for bracket mounting may be as well. It would be good to get photos of the C4SE and other pumps to help compile differences between them.

For the record, basic number 8501 for the water pump assembly doesn't yield many clues as to an interchange between pumps. The basic number cast into the water pump body, 8505, doesn't show up in the OSI catalogs as it is an engineering number: it would show up in the Master Cross-Reference book with the engineering number. I would need to spend some time to look for P&A part numbers for the '64 vs '65 and '66 pumps to see if they note any differences and then compare these numbers with what's listed in the OSI and Master Cross-Reference catalogs. If I have time over the coming week I may try to dig into this if someone doesn't beat me to it first.

[stubbie]

Can't see any numbers on the water pump. Intake manifold is C4SE9425A, Heads C8AE-H, The only numbers I can see on the block behind dip stick are 58DIP or DIR can't tell which. There is also a 352 with the number 6 above it at the front near power steering.

[Alan H. Tast]

Can't see any numbers on the water pump. Intake manifold is C4SE9425A, Heads C8AE-H, The only numbers I can see on the block behind dip stick are 58DIP or DIR can't tell which. There is also a 352 with the number 6 above it at the front near power steering.

More than likely if you can't find a casting/engineering number on the pump it's an aftermarket replacement, I.e. Airtex, for instance. Heads are circa 1968 full-size Ford - need to track down if off a 390 (most likely) or 428. Intake is for a '64 'Bird.

Block casting/engineering number will be on the right (passenger) side toward the front, while a casting date will be on the left (driver's) side of the block adjacent to where the oil filter adapter bolts to the block. Virtually all blocks have the "352" cast into them so ignore that one. The "DIP" you're seeing is more than likely "DIF" which means the part was cast at the Dearborn Iron Foundry. An assembly code should be stamped into the block on a raised pad at the left front corner of the block below the cylinder head - I won't go into how to decode casting/assembly date codes as this info is in VTCI's 1964-1966 Original Factory Specifications (OFS) manual.

As stated before, I REALLY would like to get photos of water pumps with Ford engineering/casting numbers in order to determine what differences are between various ones (accessory mounting points, length/angle of outlet neck, etc.). It would also be helpful to get heights/lengths of pumps from the face of the mounting flanges to the front mounting face of the cooling fan flange, as this did change over the years. While this isn't directly addressing the mounting bracket/spacer question, it should help in understanding what might be on the OP's car.

[stubbie]

I guess I have 2 choices. Buy the correct year water pump or try and make this one work. There is nothing wrong with this pump it works fine so I might look at some different brackets. Cheers

[tmjsong1aolcom]

I may have time in the next couple days to look thru my water pumps. As for my 2 cents worth, get the correct water pump configuration.

Not doing so can cause the belts not to be aligned and cause all kinds of problems. You will be surprised what can be obtained from auto parts houses across the country as they rebuild whatever they receive back. Remember that a call for a rebuilt water pump for a 64 bird is not a common
request so there is probably one sitting on a shelf somewhere. I found a rebuilt one on a shelf in a warehouse in Madison Wi. about 2 years ago.

C4SE casting number. Another problem is the rebuilder may put in the wrong length shaft.

Good luck with the hunt.
Richard Johnson

[stubbie]

Thanks Richard. I'm in Australia so 1964 FE water pumps don't come easy. There is a guy in this country who has a lot of FE stuff but he knows that it's hard to get so he charges thrice the price. I'll have to look around and see if anyone else has one. If not I will keep an eye out on ebay. Cheers

[stubbie]

Would this be the water pump I need? thanks
http://www.ebay.com/itm/REMANUFACTURED- ... fs&vxp=mtr

[redstangbob]

Would this be the water pump I need?

Before you buy, look closely at the picture of the box. It shows FE engine with generator, not alternator. My car is stored, I can't run out and get pictures for you. good luck, Bob C