Pulley & Accessory diagram?

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eduncan042
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Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by eduncan042 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:25 am

Anyone have a more detailed resource for the pulley and accessory mounting to the engine? The manual doesn't show much and the Osborne electrical book shows AC, but very general and hard to see the spacers. Trying to work out the spacers mainly for the PS pump (remote rs style) and alternator and tensioning pulley plate.

I have the oblong spacer for the PS pump I'm pretty sure, but the other end sticks out over the water pump. Obviously I'm not doing it right!

As always, help is much appreciated!
Eric
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'65 Special Landau

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paulr
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by paulr » Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:27 am

Power steering on your 64 or your 65? Different animals.

Paul
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eduncan042
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by eduncan042 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:43 am

Sorry 64.
Eric
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paulr
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by paulr » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:01 pm

eduncan042 wrote:Anyone have a more detailed resource for the pulley and accessory mounting to the engine? The manual doesn't show much and the Osborne electrical book shows AC, but very general and hard to see the spacers. Trying to work out the spacers mainly for the PS pump (remote rs style) and alternator and tensioning pulley plate.
I have the oblong spacer for the PS pump I'm pretty sure, but the other end sticks out over the water pump. Obviously I'm not doing it right!
As always, help is much appreciated!
Osborne book is the best there is, I think. I was where you are last June. Finding out about the PS is a safari because it's not Ford manufacture, it's Eaton, and there's no catalog. Under the PS bracket there is the spacer behind the tensioning bolt to the water pump, but there should be no spacer behind the pivot bolt (or possibly a shim). There is also a slight and remarkable difference between the right bracket and the various wrong brackets. A/C or non-A/C '64 car (different brackets, the wrong one will NOT work), and prior year brackets; all of them look a little alike, but a few millimeters make a mile of difference.
Image
Image

As for the tensioning pulley, I'm asking if this is the idler bracket assembly as for the A/C belt? There is a spacer needed for that.

Alt spacer is easy to fabricate; I have to figure out the dimension on that some way. Not sure if this is helping.

Paul
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Alan H. Tast
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by Alan H. Tast » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:37 pm

On the brackets, were there part numbers cast into it, and what were they? I'm attempting to chronicle different bracket applications as part of '61-'63 and '64-'66 Original Factory Specification research. Feel free to post them here as I'm sure others want to know.
Alan H. Tast, AIA
Technical Director/Past President,
Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l.
Author, "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years"
1963 Hardtop & 1963 Sports Roadster

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paulr
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by paulr » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:19 pm

Alan H. Tast wrote:On the brackets, were there part numbers cast into it, and what were they? I'm attempting to chronicle different bracket applications as part of '61-'63 and '64-'66 Original Factory Specification research. Feel free to post them here as I'm sure others want to know.
Image
Unlike a Ford cast iron bracket, i.e. an A/C compressor support bracket, no catalog numbers were cast into these brackets, and I looked closely. In the above picture you can see what looks like "1" and a triangle, or maybe it's an inverted V. The two symbols are reversed on either bracket. I take those to maybe be more like a manufacturer's signature code or something. The same stamp appears on the Eaton pump I have. The top bracket above is a '64 w/AC and the bottom is unknown, definitely pre-64 (the hand lettering ID is wrong.) Someone else will have to add to this; these brackets are rarer than hens teeth.

Paul
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Paul
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eduncan042
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by eduncan042 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:12 am

Ok, got PS spacer and all looks good there.

Images below show the idler pulley bracket. The oval spacer that fits the bend in the bracket doesn't seem to line up with anything else. It's shown up against the water pump. I know that isn't where it should be.
There is also a gap behind where the anchor point that I'm positive needs a spacer. What do you know oh Tbird brethren? It is Sunday morning after all.

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by paulr » Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:06 am

The C4MA spacer and your pulley assembly are both mounted in the wrong place. Will try to get photos; difficult with engine installed.

Paul
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eduncan042
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by eduncan042 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:42 am

Image

Here is the only other naturally fitting spot to me, but it doesn't allow the brace for the AC or the anchor point for the pulley.
Eric
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Alan H. Tast
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by Alan H. Tast » Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:17 pm

Is the surge tank not installed because you're having problems locating where the idler pulley/bracket go?
Alan H. Tast, AIA
Technical Director/Past President,
Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l.
Author, "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years"
1963 Hardtop & 1963 Sports Roadster

eduncan042
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by eduncan042 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:13 pm

Correct Allan. I'm having a problem placing the 2 holes bracket and getting the idler pulley to sit flush. Just had the engine rebuilt and they didn't put any of the pulleys/accessories back on. Just handed me a box of bolts and such. The recess notch in the idler pulley just doesn't seem to want to sit flush. I'm thinking I'm missing a small round spacer and I don't know how that oblong spacer is to fit. The Osborne guide doesn't make sense since it's so small and the lines aren't accurate. If I assemble that way it isn't flush either.
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paulr
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by paulr » Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:52 pm

OK.

Back up to the way you were mounted in the first picture. I said that your pulley was not correct; your bracket, however, was fine. The second bracket mounting will never work.

In this picture (view from the back), the oblong spacer is shown where it belongs behind the bracket. (Difficult camera conditions, sorry), the spacer is suited thus: using this picture, the lower part of the spacer matches a mounting boss on your water pump, and the top of the spacer fits an unthreaded stud on the pump (more on this later). Also in this picture, below the spacer you see a square welded nut. This nut receives the pulley tensioning bolt.
Image
From the front (sorry, I can't get a better shot with the fan and radiator in) you see the tensioning bolt passing through to that square nut, and you can now see the pulley pivot/mounting bolt can only fit through the slot where the oblong spacer fits that mounting boss in back. Sorry, confusing to put in words.

If you mount the pulley and spacer correctly first, then the bracket can only fit the way you had it in the beginning. Is this clear? If not I'll try something else. Best,

Paul
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Paul
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eduncan042
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by eduncan042 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:11 pm

Thanks for all the effort. Can you pull the rad Soni can really see it better? Ha!

Here is the rub, I'm back together and I see that the oblong space goes from the anchor point of the idler pulley to the bass on the water pump, but those points aren't on the same plane on my set up. The boss is forward about 1/2" as its cast. Is that where I'm having a problem? The pump is C4se8505a.
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paulr
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by paulr » Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:23 pm

Now I see it in your "behind" photo up above. I've had two water pumps and they are not like yours. I hate to say, but mine goes together like in the book, and the alignment is right. Leads me to wonder about alternate water pumps, but I'm out of info. By that picture of yours, it's a pump issue.

Fuz? You see this?

Paul
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eduncan042
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Re: Pulley & Accessory diagram?

Post by eduncan042 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:48 pm

I'm fairly mechanically inclined and going back and forth. It should just bolt up. The bass being longer is my issue. Anyone able to identify the pump and if I need to pull it and swap? I'm more than irritated at the builder.
Eric
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