Universal Power brake booster experiment

This area is for posting questions/information concerning 1964-66 year Thunderbirds NO FOR SALE POSTINGS

Moderator: redstangbob

dgalietti
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by dgalietti »

Here is a before pic.. Pretty close. But the new one is smaller.
Attachments
0203191136_HDR.jpg
dgalietti
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by dgalietti »

Quick update... I got the engine in.

I bolted the booster and bracket up, and it is very close to the valve cover.. but does not touch.

It sits pretty low, but doesn't seem to interfere with anything.

The master cyl I haven't been able to bolt on yet.

I got a wilwood style master cyl. and it was much too large. the compact wilwood will work.

I also got this one from speedway motors that is a ford style.. but it won't bolt up to the booster because of the ford bolt pattern :roll:

So, I've got to figure out a way to bring the mounting holes out slightly and I will be done.

I did find the same master cyl on the stainless steel brakes site already with slotted mounting holes, but didn't want to buy another one.
Attachments
master cyl.png
dgalietti
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by dgalietti »

Ok. It looks like we finally have a winner!

This is a master cyl. for a 99 blazer with a KT stamp #mc390427. It is 1" bore and very compact. This one has the outlets to the right, which works well for me.

Everything has good clearance right now. The valve cover is a little close, but I will adjust the whole assembly up a 1/4" or so and it will be perfect.

So this is using the aftermarket bracket, universal 8" dual diaphragm booster, and the blazer MC.

Here is a summary of what I have learned so far.

1- universal boosters use a GM bolt pattern master cylinder and a square mounting pattern that is very close to ours, but will not fit without modifying our brackets.

2- GM bolt pattern master cylinders are mostly HUGE and patterned after old corvette MCs. Ford MCs are much smaller, come in various configurations.. and can be modified to fit the GM boosters. There are some vendors that sell ford MCs with slotted mounting holes which will fit just fine( stainless steel brakes) . Wilwood MCs are also huge, unless you get the compact one.

3- The aftermarket bracket I found will work , but lowers everything and sticks out further than the factory bracket. If I was going to start from the beginning I would probably just modify the original bracket.

4- both my original bracket and my pedal assembly needed to be completely taken apart, wire brushed out, cleaned, painted, greased, and reassembled. They were both binding quite a bit. If you pedal feels hard and makes noise.. don't ignore these components. They suck to get to, but safety is important!

Total investment:
Brake Booster $55.00 amazon- made by inline tube
Master Cyl $70.79 Rockauto
Bracket $65 Piratejack.net Ford truck Booster bracket

I will update when I actually drive this thing eventually and let you know how it actually functions.
Attachments
0728201329.jpg
0728201329a_HDR.jpg
0728201331_HDR.jpg
0728201331a_HDR.jpg
travellew
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2023 7:57 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by travellew »

I know this post is old..... but I thought I would revive it.

I was excited when I first came across it as it seemed like the OP may have the perfect solution. A universal brake booster with the original brake pedal bracket (with some small modification).

Unfortunately, it will not work. The universal boosters require more space on the firewall side and if you try to use the original bracket there is just no way they will fit. There is a plastic housing around the stud on the universal booster that interferes with the brake pedal lever. Even if you cut that plastic away the stud does not have threads low enough for a fitting to connect to the lever.

At this point I have nothing to loose, so I'm going to try cutting away the plastic, then using a die to thread the stud further. Even then, I think I will need to use spaces to push the booster farther from the firewall (guessing 1/4-1/2 inch).. I did an eyeball measurement and I should have tons of room between the master cylinder and the cross member (like an inch).

I think I can make it work, but not exactly what I wanted. I was hoping everything would be off the shelf and easy to replace down the road. With booster mods, that won't be true. However, it should be good for another 20-25 years.

I really appreciate the OPs original post as it saved me TONS of time that I would have spent looking for things. If I was going to do it again, I would buy the FT5772BPR bracket. I would modify it and the mount for the booster on the firewall. I would add some extensions (weld) to "raise" the whole system up about 1". That would give some breathing room from the valve cover, but still keep it clear of the cross member. At that point any future owners could just buy off the shelf stuff in the event of a future failure!
dgalietti
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by dgalietti »

Here is an update to my experiment, as i tried to put the pedal assembly in and torque everything down. I ran into a few problems and have a new plan.

1: as the last poster said, nearly every style of universal booster protrudes too far out behind the booster. I cut the rod to get it to fit, but the protrusion limits the pedal movement.- potentially solved. The protrusion is part of the housing and doesnt collapse like our original boosters do.

2: the bracket that i used sits lower and farther out. Sitting further out helps with the protrusion, but it comes very close to the valve covers. I scrapped the idea of using this bracket- definitely solved

3: the eyelet on the original booster has a downturn where none of the universal ones do. This makes a difference when trying to attached the arm for the pedal bracket.- not solved yet

So here are some of the potential solutions:

For the booster i discovered that there are a lot of places selling universal bendix style boosters. The rod stick out in the back is 4" which is very close to where we need it. I just need to find out if the protrusion on the back collapses like our originals do. - more research required.

For the bracket you have one easy option and one that i am looking into. The easy option is to elongate the mounting holes in your original bracket. Then it will fit whatever you throw at it. But it is very important that take it apart, clean it, and lube it. Second potential solution. There is a fairlane power brake conversion kit bracket that looks exactly like what we need. Pics attached

As for the eyelet.. i havent found a female threaded downturn eyelet. If anybody else finds one let me know. If the bendix style booster will allow the rod to angle down slightly without binding throughout the full pedal range it may not be necessary.

Thoughts are welcome everyone! While my car is getting painted i will be deciding if i just order this whole setup and try to make it work. It is so close, but changing one component always creates another issue.
Attachments
Screenshot_20240608-164654.png
Screenshot_20240608-164648.png
Screenshot_20240608-164640.png
jtschug
Posts: 1569
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by jtschug »

This also looks like an interesting one if you could turn it 90° counter clockwise

https://www.npdlink.com/product/power-b ... 0812/80193
1966 Thunderbird Convertible (Emberglo / White-Emberglo)
Modified 428 - stroked, rollercam, aluminum top end, headers
Livermore, CA
dgalietti
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by dgalietti »

Update:

I ordered this kit. I can't try it right now because my car is out getting painted and it may be a while.

But the booster looks really good. It is exactly what we need for clearance. The new bracket may or may not work. It is a little bit higher than the original, which is my only concern. The Master Cyl would work, but I will probably keep the GM one that I have already.

Honestly It looks like you could just use this as a direct replacement booster if you put the correct pushrod clevis on it.

I will update as soon as I get it on the car.
dgalietti
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by dgalietti »

New update with my latest experiment. I got my car back from paint and ive been reassembling. I finally had some time to mess with the booster stuff that i got.

The bracket kit that it came with is a no go. It looks like we are stuck with the factory bracket. Which does need to have the holes elongated to fit non factory boosters.

The master cylinder it came with is a no go. I wasnt expecting this to fit.

The brake booster is a definite yes! To make this booster fit you need to elongate the holes on the factory bracket and adapt the pushrod to fit. The problem you run into here is that the old pushrod is angled down. Way more important than you'd think. So what i did was yanked out the old one with a hammer and seal puller... And installed it on the new booster. The new one i was a little more careful with. It is held in with a c-clip and then requires some force to pop out.

Now the new problem. My gm master cyl wont work. The bendix booster pushrod sticks out of the booster while the gm one is basically flush. After some research i am thinking of trying a 93 cobra master cylinder. It seems like most fords all the way through the 90s had the pushrod that sticks out. Or... The wilwood company master cyl is looking more attractive all the time despite the ridiculous price. Also the wilwood tandem remote master cyl looks like an option as well.

So to recap my multiple experiments.
After market brackets dont work.
Universal boosters dont work/ but the ford bendix style booster will with modification.
And our cars need a ford bolt pattern master cyl the has a cavity for the pushrod that stick out. Cant be flush. It seems like a lot of universal master cylinders come with an extension plug so that they work on multiple models.
jtschug
Posts: 1569
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by jtschug »

I have the Wilwood compact master cylinder, and it fit fine with the 1964 brake booster using the 1965 booster bracket. (the 1964 booster is available as a reproduction)

The downside of the 1964 booster is it is a single diaphragm, so it doesn't offer quite as much boost as the dual diaphragm 1965 boosters from Midland and Bendix. This became a more urgent problem for me because my aftermarket cam makes less vacuum than stock. I added an electric vacuum pump and it helped, but not quite enough. This was exacerbated by the 1-1/8" bore MC I have. Wilwood now says I should go to 1" or 15/16".

Anyway, I spent a couple months cramming in the Wilwood MC with the 1965 Midland dual booster into my car. I had to modify the bracket to move the booster rearward and angle it downward slightly and it just barely fits with a little bit of jostling on the shock tower brace and bracket (but no cutting to the brace)

If you have good engine vacuum, you could try the 1964 single diaphragm booster with the 1965 stock bracket.
1966 Thunderbird Convertible (Emberglo / White-Emberglo)
Modified 428 - stroked, rollercam, aluminum top end, headers
Livermore, CA
dgalietti
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by dgalietti »

I ordered the 1" bore wilwood. The original was just under 1" so I didnt see any reason to go bigger. Even with the slightly increased surface area of the rear discs. The main deciding factor was the front brakes remaining completely stock.

From the measurements it will be very close with this booster, but i should be able to make it work. I may need to notch the shock brace ever so slightly. I definitely dont feel up to trying out any more combinations in the name of science...

I wonder how close in dimensions the midland and bendix boosters are. Mine originally was the bendix style and the replacement booster is a tiny bit shorter.

These cars are pretty heavy, so i think the dual diaphragm is a must. I will take pics when i get it all installed.
jtschug
Posts: 1569
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by jtschug »

The Midland booster requires a 3/8" spacer between the booster and the MC. As you can see in these pictures, I'm also using the Wilwood adjustable proportioning valve. I have 4-piston Wilwood disc brakes in the rear and I wanted to be able to balance them with the front.

On the shock tower bracket I elongated the holes a little so I could rotate it as far as I could counter clockwise while still lining up with the bolt holes in the brace. It didn't provide much, but this was a game of millimeters, and every little bit counts. The final clearance on the brace came from folding the downward flange inward slightly. I think the clearance now might be 1/8"

The other issue is that forward brake line hitting the shock tower because my line bender couldn't make that turn any closer to the port. I took about a 1/2" from the middle of the booster mounting bracket to move the booster rearward. Then the studs upper on the booster touched firewall, so I had to tilt the booster a little so that I could still move the bottom of the booster rearward. This caused a little bit of rubbing between the firewall and the pushrod, so I cut away some metal and enlarged the slot where the push rod goes through. I sealed this up with some butyl rubber and a plastic sheet. It is all hidden behind the booster, so nothing looks out of place. The final clearance between that brake line and the shock tower is about 1/4", maybe less.
Attachments
MC pic 2.jpg
MC pic 1.jpg
1966 Thunderbird Convertible (Emberglo / White-Emberglo)
Modified 428 - stroked, rollercam, aluminum top end, headers
Livermore, CA
dgalietti
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by dgalietti »

Oh man.. I hope that extra 3/8 - 1/2" makes all of the difference. I just want to be done with this at this point.

The top studs on the booster I put in do come very close to the firewall, but I got an open ended wrench on there with only a little blood loss.

Fortunately since I violently yanked the old pushrod out of the old booster and stabbed it in the new one.. there are zero clearance issues at the firewall. It is bolted in and I swear I will never remove those nuts again.
jtschug
Posts: 1569
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by jtschug »

Good Luck! I put things in and took them out at least a dozen times. I built the booster bracket and rebuilt it a couple times. I was determined not to cut the tower brace because that really compromises the strength.

Had I known all of this from the beginning, I probably would have done hydroboost (but maybe I’d regret that too).

Let me know how that 1” works. Someday I might go back and swap this MC out for a smaller bore.
1966 Thunderbird Convertible (Emberglo / White-Emberglo)
Modified 428 - stroked, rollercam, aluminum top end, headers
Livermore, CA
dgalietti
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by dgalietti »

Well damn.. my takeaway from this is that i just suck at measuring things.

It fits, but i somehow have even less room than you between the MC and brace. Mine appears to sit higher also. But my bracket is not modified. Only drilled to fit that booster.. For now im just going to cut and reinforce the brace. Then later i may build something better and more functional. Im thinking of putting a heavy duty angle bracket on the firewall and fully welding something with square tubing or something. There should also be something going between the shock towers. We will see.

For now though.. it is what it is and the brakes will work great. I will post some more updates when i get it on the road, tested, adjusted, and broken in

We ended up with:

Wilwood compact 1" bore master cyl. Kit with prop valve

Bendix style universal 8" dual diaphragm brake booster.

Stock pedal bracket modified only by drilling the mounting holes to fit the universal booster
dgalietti
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Universal Power brake booster experiment

Post by dgalietti »

Here is a pic of the booster and master cyl installed.
Attachments
IMG_20250118_165302207.jpg
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests