engine bay questions

[ELTBIRD]

My hardtop is a 66 and I have the top, off set bracket with the two long J hook rods extending down to the battery tray. I ordered the reproduction turbo start 27F AUTOLITE sta full light weight AGM battery yesterday. It shipped. Should be here tomorrow. Looking forward to installing that with the new cables. As I previously stated, the letters are not red as original. I could try painting them red but if not done perfectly, it won't look good. We will see...

[Scott6T6]

One thing everybody considering the purchase of one of these reproduction AUTOLITE batteries should know before exchanging some serious cash is that the reproduction battery on the market is actually a 1968 - '71 version of the Autolite battery. I believe it was originally produced by the New Castle Battery Company back in the 1980s, using a NOS 1968 Autolite Sta-Ful 24F battery as their prototype. That same case design has been reproduced ever since that time, being offered by various companies since New Castle went out of business years ago. This 1968 - 71 style AUTOLITE 24F battery is NOT factory correct for any Ford product older than '68. The same holds true for the reproduction Autolite 27F, it's the 1968 - '71 version.

Earlier Autolite batteries differed somewhat from the final '68 - '71 version. The service date sticker located between the posts that you see on top of the reproduction battery was first introduced in 1968. Prior to that, there was no service date sticker. Instead, there was this warning cast in relief that was painted yellow and read; CAUTION TO PREVENT ELECTRICAL SYSTEM DAMAGE WHEN USING BATTERY CHARGER OR BOOSTER ALWAYS CONNECT - POSITIVE TO POSITIVE NEGATIVE TO NEGATIVE.
Different colors of caps were also used depending primarily on the size or amp rating of the battery. 29NF 65-amp batteries had gray caps (1964), 24F had red caps (1965/66), 27HF 70 - amp had gray caps (1965/66) and 27HF 80 - amp had black caps (1964/65/66).

The first photo is of a NOS 1966 Autolite sta-ful group 22 battery. The group 22 was not used in Thunderbird's, but it had the same basic appearance as the other batteries, it was just smaller. This version of the Autolite battery was used from 1965 - '67, possibly '64 as well.
The second photo is of the current reproduction AGM '68 - '71 Autolite 24F. The differences between the two are clear. It should also be mentioned some original Autolite batteries had the raised letters of the logo painted red/orange and some were left un-painted. Why some were painted and some were not is unclear.

If you look closely at the factory installed 27HF battery in the brand new '66 Thunderbird in the last photo (March '66 issue of Ford Times) you can just make out the yellow lettered warning between the posts. It had what appear to be black caps, which would indicate it was the 80 - amp version. Also notice the absence of 'red - painted' Autolite sta-ful logos on the case. The white rectangular sticker in the right front corner of the battery was a BATTERY OK decal.

The MCA - Mustang Club of America has been trying for years to get any company reproducing the '68-'71 Autolite battery to also tool up and start producing the earlier style. It should be fairly easy to do requiring only the top to be modified. So far, they have been unsuccessful in their campaign. I'd sure like to see that happen!

Scott

[Scott6T6]

Here's an example of an original Autolite sta-ful battery that had unpainted logos on the case. This is a NOS 1965 -'67 era group 22 battery.

[ELTBIRD]

Here is the 27F reproduction I just received. I just love it! Best we can do since the original 66 style reproduction is not available. This would have been the replacement after the original one died. Sure beats the look of a NAPA or other modern replacement!

[ELTBIRD]

I just received a replacement for the original water control valve that leaked. Original on left. Though they are very similar, the replacement has no logo or part # on it. Also the position of the bracket and vacuum port is different. Still usable assuming it doesn't leak but curious about what this is. Patent numbers are the same on both. A Ford service replacement valve? Aftermarket?

[Scott6T6]

Hi Ed,

Well, you're certainly right about the battery, it is the best we have available to us at present. Yep, if you went into your Ford dealer and bought a new battery in 1968 thru '71, this is the battery you probably would have received. I agree, it's far better than an aftermarket battery.

I have this old reproduction Autolite 27F. Been sitting in my garage for years on display. It went south on me after about 5 years of service. I was talking to a friend of mine last Thursday and mentioned I had this battery. He said he thinks he may be able to de-sulfate the plates and rejuvenate the battery and wanted to know what my plans for the battery were. I told him he could have it. Plan to deliver it to him tomorrow. I just cleaned it up and it still looks real nice, it's just dead. Man, these are heavy!

The friend I'm giving the battery to has a Ford service part heater water control valve in his '65 Thunderbird convertible and it had FORD die stamped into it instead of FoMoCo - like the original part had. I was just looking at it Thursday as a matter of fact. I'm not sure what valve you have there. I've never seen one like that until now. It sure looks similar to the Ford part!

Scott

[Scott6T6]

Ed,

You inspired me to purchase one of these reproduction AUTOLITE sta-ful AGM batteries. i think one or more of the previous companies reproducing this battery had been putting out a somewhat inferior product. I know so many people who bought one of those reproduction AUTOLITE batteries in the past only to have it fail two or three years later. Many of them now say they would never buy another one of those reproduction batteries again!

Reproduction AUTOLITE batteries have been exceedingly hard to come by for a number of years and had gained a negative reputation for being short lived. Now that Turbo Start Mfg. is producing the AUTOLITE reproduction batteries and they are using AGM technology, the reports from several very reputable Mustang parts vendors who carry this battery (when they can get them) are favorable. It took some serious searching on my part until I finally found JEGS had several of the Group 24 AUTOLITE AGM batteries made by Turbo Start Mfg. in stock and their price was acceptable. So, I purchased one. Unfortunately, Turbo Start does not paint the trademark lettering on the battery case. Some of the original AUTOLITE batteries did not have painted lettering, but I think all of the group 24 batteries did have the lettering highlighted with red/orange paint. I feel the batteries look so much nicer with the lettering painted. So, I elected to paint the lettering on the battery myself. I referred to photos of NOS batteries to get the proper red/orange color. I used 1-Shot Lettering Enamel in Vermillion and applied it to the raised lettering on the battery with a small rubber brayer/roller. I have to admit it was a challenge getting the results I wanted. It took some time and effort, but it was worth it to me and I'm quite pleased with the finished product. I also added a few other touches like applying a red paint daub to the top of the positive post because I've observed that on some NOS batteries. I'm also going to install a gray felt anti-corrosion washer on the positive post just like Ford did on all new factory installed batteries in that era. The washer carried Ford part # 374043-S and can be seen in the 1966 Thunderbird Electrical Assembly Manual on page 11.

Here's a shot of my reproduction AUTOLITE group 24 battery now that I've finished detailing it. I presently have a Motorcraft group 24 battery in my Town Landau, but that is about to be relegated to 'back-up' status and I'll be installing this AUTOLITE in its place. Yes, this reproduction is of the '68 - '71 version of the battery, but it's very close to the factory installed battery and it's the only one available to us at present. I can live with that.

Perhaps if enough people contact Turbo Start Mfg. and put in a request for them to also produce a correct '64 - '67 version of the AUTOLITE battery, they just may do so. I intend to contact them myself and campaign for it! Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

Scott

[Alan H. Tast]

Perhaps if enough people contact Turbo Start Mfg. and put in a request for them to also produce a correct '64 - '67 version of the AUTOLITE battery, they just may do so. I intend to contact them myself and campaign for it! Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

At the risk of starting a new thread/topic on OEM-reproduction batteries, in this age of 3D computer-aided drafting (CAD), scanning, CNC milling and 3D printing, I would think that someone could come up with an original-style battery case that could be scanned, resize and modify the drawing for the correct contours/textures, design it to slip over a smaller AGM battery with connections to posts, select the best type and color of plastic filament that would take the abuse of an engine bay, then print the case, install the posts, connect them to the AGM's terminals and - voila! It's 1964 all over again. Granted, the question then becomes how large of a production run can be made and what the cost would be, but in the right hands it would certainly be doable.

In essence the reproduction batteries are nothing more than a hollowed-out case with an AGM inside. There are people who will take an old rubber-cased lead-cell battery, hollow it out and and place it over an AGM with connections made to the terminals. In fact, I'm half tempted to cut open the case of the 27F "Power Punch" that I used in my '63 'Birds, remove the 'dead' AGM battery in it and find a newer, better AGM to transplant.

[ELTBIRD]

Scott, happy to see you got your AGM reproduction battery. I got my 27F from CJ Pony Parts. They had one left at the time. Were 24F for non AC cars and 27F for AC cars? That lettering paint job looks great!! My wife is an arts and crafts pro so I might ask here to do it using the paint/roller info you provided. When charging during storage be sure to use a charger approved for AGM batteries. I will use my Schauer CM1A that goes into float mode when the battery is fully charged. Alan, with all your technical knowledge and Scott, with your gifted painting abilities Turbo Start may want to sub some of the 64-67 battery reproduction work out to you guys! On a side note...the Marti battery cables look great but the length is barely long enough on mine going from the frame ground connector to the negative terminal. I had to tilt the battery to get it on. It is tight with no slack. Are they all Marti cables for this application made like that or was mine made too short? Thanks, Ed

[Scott6T6]

Ed,

Yes, the 24F battery was standard in non - A/C equipped Thunderbird's in '65/'66. The group 27 battery was for A/C equipped cars and those that were heavily optioned. The group 27 battery came in two versions - 70 & 80 amp.
I am going to have to buy a new battery charger designed for AGM batteries. The old charger I have now won't work!

If your wife paints the lettering on your battery, I suggest she only paint the AUTOLITE sta-ful logo on the top. I have never seen an original group 27 battery with the side lettering painted. That would also make her task easier! Matter of fact, if you look at that photo I posted previously of a new '66 Thunderbird found in the March '66 issue of Ford Times, it appears the group 27 battery in that Thunderbird had no red highlight paint on the lettering whatsoever. I think that was the 80-amp version - black caps. Some original AUTOLITE batteries had the lettering painted and some were left unadorned. Some also had the lettering on the front side of the battery painted like I did on my battery, but I've only seen that on some group 22 and group 24 batteries. Original or NOS AUTOLITE batteries are extremely tough to come by, consequently we have very few examples we can study the details on. Those seen in ads from the time period often had all of the lettering painted specifically for display purposes and were not an accurate representation of production batteries.

I did install Kevin Marti's reproduction battery cables in my friends '64 Thunderbird. The negative battery cable fit perfectly, but her '64 also had no battery heat shield and that's the only difference I can think of between the two years. The negative battery cable in a '66 was a C4SF-14301-B - which was a '64 engineering number and I'm pretty sure the same cable was used all 3 years. I have no experience installing Marti Auto Works reproduction battery cables in a '66. My car still has the original factory installed battery cables.

Here's a shot of the reproduction AUTOLITE 24F in my car. You can see the factory negative cable just fits over the post with little to no slack. I have the battery situated as far towards the engine as it will go in the tray. Those cables were designed to fit very precisely. However, if you need to tip your battery to connect the negative cable to the post that is definitely not right!

Scott

[Scott6T6]

Alan,

I totally agree with what you're saying. It certainly would be doable. It wouldn't take much to make the modifications needed to just the top of the current '68 - '71 era AUTOLITE battery to turn it into the '64 - '67 version.
I think the Turbo Start folks are in the best position to do this because they have the molds and are already making the '68 - '71 version. Everything is the same on the case of both the early and latter versions except for the top and the modification needed to convert the current top to the early version would be simple to execute.
I did contact them and put in my request for it. To actually convince them to move ahead on this, I think we'd need a lot of people asking for that battery to actually see it become a reality. I'd like the early version in both in the group 24 & 27 batteries. Mustangers want the group 22 battery as well. I say make all three!!!

Scott

[Rt.146]

As my 66 Landau shows its age, this time being the left hood hinge infamous bearings, enlarging the hole they are in, eventually popping out, which has happen to mine, the fix is easy compared to other fixes, lucky the bearings still are turning, now that the hinge is off, I read about how the original hinge assembly looked, grey phosphate, then I read someone used a grey phosphate paint which was a good match, to take the hinge and spring to a platting company sounds a little more involved than what I would like to reach out to. I will clean the part in muriatic acid, then prime and paint with grey phosphate. I'm not a concourse zealot, though I'm attempting to keep the car as original or improvements as far as possible, so the paint is a good tip for myself.

[jtschug]

As my 66 Landau shows its age, this time being the left hood hinge infamous bearings, enlarging the hole they are in, eventually popping out, which has happen to mine, the fix is easy compared to other fixes, lucky the bearings still are turning, now that the hinge is off, I read about how the original hinge assembly looked, grey phosphate, then I read someone used a grey phosphate paint which was a good match, to take the hinge and spring to a platting company sounds a little more involved than what I would like to reach out to. I will clean the part in muriatic acid, then prime and paint with grey phosphate. I'm not a concourse zealot, though I'm attempting to keep the car as original or improvements as far as possible, so the paint is a good tip for myself.

Hydrocloric i.e. muriatic acid will eat the metal, it is better to use phosphoric acid which will eat the rust but only deposit phosphates on clean steel.

[Terry64HT]

Rt.146,
It is pretty well impossible to realign the pivot when welding so that the hood will close properly. It seems that the hinge almost always closes high. In almost all the cars I've seen, the bolt is in the upper end of the slot, even with an undamaged hinge. There's lots of metal there, lengthen the slot about 1/4" so you have some adjustment available. If you don't need it, it won't hurt anything.
My opinion
Terry
64HT

[Rt.146]

Rt.146,
It is pretty well impossible to realign the pivot when welding so that the hood will close properly. It seems that the hinge almost always closes high. In almost all the cars I've seen, the bolt is in the upper end of the slot, even with an undamaged hinge. There's lots of metal there, lengthen the slot about 1/4" so you have some adjustment available. If you don't need it, it won't hurt anything.
My opinion
Terry
64HT
[/quote]

Terry, which bolt, (bearing) are you mentioning? this is the right side hinge, the left let go. For some reason the pic. is on its side, clicking on it, the pic. straightens out.
It may be the hinges closing high, the bearings are sticking or stuck, or not inserted in the proper orientation, I think one can find that bearing orientation by looking at the good one if one exist, the orientation of the bearing is the head, how does it go, does it face up or sideways, then again I do not know if it matters, something to take in consideration, in the repair.