66 power windows

[methos76]

I have a 66 t-bird and the windows will only work with the car running, they should work with just the switch turned on shouldn't they. and help with where to start would be great

[redstangbob]

I moved your post to it's proper section. The tech section is NOT for general questions. thanks

[jtschug]

Start the diagnosis at the power window safety relay.

Frankly it is a weird problem if the car is wired properly. However, in the last 53 years owners have become frustrated with power windows, and even the cost of a new relay, and thus I've seen various things done to hotwire the power windows. Perhaps they powered them off from a circuit that is only hot when the car is running. I've spent a lot of time undoing things that previous owners have done and when things are fixed properly all kinds of crazy gremlins disappear. It is hard to give much more specific advice than that.

[methos76]

thank you just seems weird to me, as long as I can get it inspected the way it is ill be happy. I hate wiring problems

[RedBird64]

Do the windows run very slowly when they do work?
I'm wondering if the higher voltage when it's running is enough to move them better.

[methos76]

actually the drivers side door window moves good, have to replace passenger side door motor. the back ones start out good but slow down I was thinking track is gummed up. I have replacement motor for the back also.taking it out this week to get the door motors and wing window assemblies replaced. 136 dollars to do everything

[RedBird64]

My back windows had been dead for more than 30 years. I very thoroughly went through the back window assemblies by straighening, cleaning, adjusting and lubricating the mechanical assembly. I polished the tracks so they were buttery smooth and ran the windows up and down in them while making minute adjustments. I also put in new motors, guide wheels and switches.
The movement of the back window is limited by resistor wires and undersized wiring (for safety & motor longevity and because Ford engineering sucked). After all this work, I connected the window directly to a battery and it about jumped out of my hands. Seriously, you could chop mellons with them.
Then I attached them to the factory wiring and they just crawled, especially at the mid point of travel. I measured a significant voltage drop (expected).
You can make them run better by using some dry film lubricant on the rubber seals (as mentioned in the FSM) but they will never work like modern power windows.

I have considered installing relays to get full power to them but at least they work so I'll keep them as-is for now. I can see where they would get to the point where the engine had to be running to get sufficient voltage & current. I try to always have the car running when using them.

[jtschug]

Do you know where the resistor wires are located? Can they be bypassed? I had assumed the voltage drop was the result of natural resistance in the relays, connectors, and switches. If it is designed-in with resistor wires, that could be something that could be modified.

[Terry64HT]

The resistors are really a resistance wire that is the ground. They heat up as current passes through them and the voltage drops so that the window will slow down as it reaches the end of the travel and won't slam into the stops. The motors need a lot of current to get moving, but not nearly as much to keep going. Remember though, that the if the voltage is down even a few volts, the motor will be a lot less efficient. The contact area in those crappy switches is probably less than 1/32" in diameter even at the best of times (and many are well corroded now). Add that to old wires, poor connectors and bad ground points and it is amazing that most work at all.
My windows all worked, but very poorly and so slowly that I often felt I needed to grab them and help by pulling them up. Motors, switches, cleaning contacts and connectors helped by they never really worked as they should. I finally added relays for each. The rear window relays are in the trunk and the front ones are inside the console in the space on either side of the ventilation controls. The relay harnesses are made up with mating connectors to the existing in the car and just plug in. I ran new power from an auxiliary fuse panel behind the washer bag to one side of the contact in each relay and the other side of the contact hooks to the original wiring to the motor. The existing window power (from the window switch) connects to the coil on the relay so it closes the contacts when the switch is activated, sending fresh 12 volt power to the motor. None of the wiring is permanent and just plugs into the existing harnesses so can be removed at any time, although I don't think I ever would.

Hope this helps
Terry
64HT

[RedBird64]

Yes, as Terry indicated the res wire is in the ground wire. I bypassed it with a solid wire and it made no difference.
I remember that the main power feed to the console switch assembly had a huge Vdrop. I installed another wire, parallel to the oem wire to correct it.
Suprisingly, I had virtually no Vdrop through the Safety Relay. If I did, I would probably have bypassed it as is offered in the owners manual (and should be concourse..).

BTW, nice work there Terry. Especially the part about just plugging your assembly in and not doing permanent harm. A very elegant fix.

Scott

[methos76]

thank you wow nice job terry

[jtschug]

Did installing a second power feed to the switches cause the windows to move faster?

I agree, Terry's setup is nice and I'm all for reversible mods. I'm considering a similar mod to put vacuum switches and relays in the dash near the distribution block to trigger power door lock solenoids. The vacuum just isn't strong enough to move my locks.

[RedBird64]

Yes, as I remember I had > 5Vdrop and the second wire got that down to something like .2~.5Vdrop (while actuating). Before I did that I don't think the backs would make a full cycle up and down unless the eng was running or a battery charger was boosting the voltage.
So they absolutely moved faster.

I can't for the life of me figure out why that main feed wire had such a bad Vdrop. There's no corrosion, looseness or issue with the ends. There was no damage along the run either and it's not even all that long.