1964 Thunderbird - power woes - just a lonely horn

[s1nemesis1s]

Background:
I have not started or even had the battery hooked up in my 64 for almost 2 years now. I just recently started the process of getting her on the road. I have the alternator off, was going to upgrade to the 3G alternator. I replaced the timing chain, put an HEI, painted and powder coated a bunch of stuff in the engine bay.

Problem:
I hooked the battery up and all I have as far as power goes is the horn! No lights, it won’t even crank. I have no power at any of the alternator wires. In my fuse panel I have one constant power coming in on a black line that feeds a couple of breakers I am pointing to the constant in one of the pictures attached. The other side, I believe it is a yellow and black wire that is supposed to bring in power – it is not – it is just dead on that side.

What I have tried:
I have replaced the starter relay/solenoid, I opened the dash up and unhooked the amp meter and wired the two leads together to take the amp meter out of the equation. Still – just a horn that is it. I am currently redoing some of the connections are the fuse panel and getting rid of some rusty ones and putting new circuit breakers in – I will see what that does tomorrow.

Current status:
No power – except for a horn. Should I try to apply 12 volts to the yellow/black wire that goes into the fuse panel to see if the systems come online? I just don’t understand what is going on. I am including some pictures of what is going on.

Thanks in advance guys - I am losing hope :(

[Terry64HT]

Hmm...
The horn on a 64 is a bit of a weird beast. The contacts on the steering wheel do not carry any power, they are the ground for the horn relay mounted on the radiator panel at the front of the car. There is power to the relay coil and one side of the contacts. When the horn ring is pressed, it grounds the coil, energizing it and pulling the contacts closed. That sends power to the horns.
If horns work, you have power at the black wire at the starter solenoid. This wire splits, going to the horn relay and the ammeter. Everything else is connected after the ammeter. If you have no power to the black at the ammeter, the problem is likely in the connector designated 127 on the electrical drawings. I can't tell you the exact location, but it appears to be above the fuse panel.
Hope this helps
Terry
64HT

[s1nemesis1s]

Hey there!

Thank you - I will take a look in the morning. I am trying to figure out how to follow the path of electrical on this. At the ammeter, I do not have power. When I took the leads off neither was hot. I went ahead and bypassed the meter for safety/taking a possible problem out of the equation - meaning I spliced the wires together. So are we saying that power is coming in on the passenger side and feeds over to the ammeter? Just trying to understand how to flows through the car. I do have constant power to one side/one wire in my fuse panel - I am pointing to it here - however, on the other side, I do not have the constant power.

Also, pictured are my alternator wires - none of them have any power going to them - which one should? I could do a continuity test If I knew which to see about a break I would think.

Thank you all so much!

[Alan H. Tast]

Considering the fact that, according to the picture, you're not running the original alternator and appear to have a GM-style (yech) one, you may want to pose your alternator question in the Modified forum with more info (1- or 3-wire alternator, internal regulator?, etc.).

[s1nemesis1s]

Lol! I will have you know that is one of the most premier alternators to come off a 94 v6 mustang LMAO!!! I do have an HEI though...

Seriously though, the car is stock otherwise. I have not hooked the alternator up, I was hoping to do the 3g upgrade. Now, I think I will go back stock though for now, I just don't know enough about electrical at this point to be updating stuff.

I am unsure of where the wires go on the old alternator...didn't take any pictures...

[Alan H. Tast]

Lol! I will have you know that is one of the most premier alternators to come off a 94 v6 mustang LMAO!!! I do have an HEI though...

Seriously though, the car is stock otherwise. I have not hooked the alternator up, I was hoping to do the 3g upgrade. Now, I think I will go back stock though for now, I just don't know enough about electrical at this point to be updating stuff.

I am unsure of where the wires go on the old alternator...didn't take any pictures...

I stand corrected - didn't look close enough, plus my unfamiliarity with anything newer than the 1970s can get in my way. All the more reason to ask questions like how to wire up the newer-style alternators and HEI in the Modified forum. This does beg two questions, though:

1. Since you have a '64, does it still have the plug-in connector-style alternator and wiring loom, or was it converted to the '65-newer version with individual wires to the stator/field/ground/battery terminals It looks like the wiring ends you're showing in the picture with the alternator had the plug cut off and eyelet terminals installed for the '65-newer version.

2. Do you have the factory shop manual, wiring diagram manual/schematics and/or Electrical Assembly Manual? If you don't, BUY THEM - NOW!!


I do have to ask - when did '64s come from the factory with an electric radiator fan?

[paulr]

Hey there!

Thank you - I will take a look in the morning. I am trying to figure out how to follow the path of electrical on this. At the ammeter, I do not have power. When I took the leads off neither was hot. I went ahead and bypassed the meter for safety/taking a possible problem out of the equation - meaning I spliced the wires together. So are we saying that power is coming in on the passenger side and feeds over to the ammeter? Just trying to understand how to flows through the car. I do have constant power to one side/one wire in my fuse panel - I am pointing to it here - however, on the other side, I do not have the constant power.

Also, pictured are my alternator wires - none of them have any power going to them - which one should? I could do a continuity test If I knew which to see about a break I would think.

Thank you all so much!

PXL_20210117_150730849.jpg

PXL_20210117_151039148.jpg

To get back to a couple of your points, yeah, you have the right idea. Current passes through the right (passenger) side firewall bulkhead connector through the various applications including the ammeter and back out through the left. I'm not enough of an electrician to troubleshoot a conflict this big in my head so I tend to always pare back to the basic setup and start there--like you said, put the OEM alternator back just for now, try making the circuit look like factory and get things moving. After you discover the spooks in the circuit and eliminate them, you can introduce upgrades. Study your schematic. I couldn't imagine going from LA to New York without a map. Probably doesn't have to be said but check all grounds--shiny and tight.

[DakotaLee]

Lol! I will have you know that is one of the most premier alternators to come off a 94 v6 mustang LMAO!!! I do have an HEI though...

Seriously though, the car is stock otherwise. I have not hooked the alternator up, I was hoping to do the 3g upgrade. Now, I think I will go back stock though for now, I just don't know enough about electrical at this point to be updating stuff.

I am unsure of where the wires go on the old alternator...didn't take any pictures...

I'll go out to my car in the morning and take some photos of my 1-wire alternator setup. It's pretty easy, but guidance helps. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

[s1nemesis1s]

Lol! I will have you know that is one of the most premier alternators to come off a 94 v6 mustang LMAO!!! I do have an HEI though...

Seriously though, the car is stock otherwise. I have not hooked the alternator up, I was hoping to do the 3g upgrade. Now, I think I will go back stock though for now, I just don't know enough about electrical at this point to be updating stuff.

I am unsure of where the wires go on the old alternator...didn't take any pictures...

I stand corrected - didn't look close enough, plus my unfamiliarity with anything newer than the 1970s can get in my way. All the more reason to ask questions like how to wire up the newer-style alternators and HEI in the Modified forum. This does beg two questions, though:

1. Since you have a '64, does it still have the plug-in connector-style alternator and wiring loom, or was it converted to the '65-newer version with individual wires to the stator/field/ground/battery terminals It looks like the wiring ends you're showing in the picture with the alternator had the plug cut off and eyelet terminals installed for the '65-newer version.

2. Do you have the factory shop manual, wiring diagram manual/schematics and/or Electrical Assembly Manual? If you don't, BUY THEM - NOW!!


I do have to ask - when did '64s come from the factory with an electric radiator fan?

I do have some of the manuals, but some of the information is conflicting or lacking to someone newish to all this like me. Also, the reprints are so light it makes some of the diagrams almost impossible to read. Hence depending on folks like you who have a good working knowledge of this stuff. Much appreciated!

With all this said, my question was more towards why I don't have power - the upgrade/update of the alternator was not really my main question. If I wanted to know more about that I would for sure ask in the mod section.

I am assuming it has been mangled by the previous owner. It took me months to undo his crazy crap - he has fuses trying to be breakers, none of the lights worked - it was a total disaster. I undid all that and got it past inspection and registered. Then my mother passed away. I was a caregiver for her - after that I just kinda dropped the car for almost 2 years. Now I am picking back up more and trying to get it running so I can drive it to the new house and out of my father's garage. The wife and I have lived with them for 4 years taking care of my multiply disabled brother and my mother - we are escaping now - too much.

So, I am adding things for convenience at this point. The Spal fan and shroud will outperform the factory mechanical fan by huge margins - sitting in traffic in 2021 is much different than it was in the 60's. I also updated to an HEI for total ease of use and containment of the system.

So this car will be a restomod really. I wish I had the money and time to do a proper resto - but I do not and want to drive it before I turn 40 or have to have it pulled to the new house - not a good look for the neighbors, don't want to let them know I am total redneck yet.

[s1nemesis1s]

Hmm...
The horn on a 64 is a bit of a weird beast. The contacts on the steering wheel do not carry any power, they are the ground for the horn relay mounted on the radiator panel at the front of the car. There is power to the relay coil and one side of the contacts. When the horn ring is pressed, it grounds the coil, energizing it and pulling the contacts closed. That sends power to the horns.
If horns work, you have power at the black wire at the starter solenoid. This wire splits, going to the horn relay and the ammeter. Everything else is connected after the ammeter. If you have no power to the black at the ammeter, the problem is likely in the connector designated 127 on the electrical drawings. I can't tell you the exact location, but it appears to be above the fuse panel.
Hope this helps
Terry
64HT

This put me on the path to SOLVE the issue - THANK YOU! I looked up above my head near the fuse panel and discovered several junctions of wires - one had corroded connectors. I stabbed a probe at it several times and the car came to life!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!

So, now I will cut both ends of the connectors and wire these together, making good solid mechanical connections that are shielded.

This journey has led me to take the dash somewhat apart for the amp meter bypass (which I did by the way) - I hate that I had tear into it...but I had to try what I could - plus now that the ampmeter is bypassed that is one less worry.

[Terry64HT]

Glad that I was helpful.
Hope I can be again, not that I'm wishing you more problems!!
Terry
64HT

[s1nemesis1s]

Here are some pictures of the connector I removed, the wiring location, and the new wiring I put in, is well - thank you all!

[Alan H. Tast]

THIS looks like the classic "melt-down" issue at the underdash wiring connector that was covered in-depth in the Nov-Dec 2020 Scoop re: the ammeter feed for '64 and how it was re-engineered for '65 and '66!! Another reason why those of you who aren't currently members of VTCI need to join and get "Thunderbird Scoop" magazine.

[s1nemesis1s]

I am glad the info is out there. I went ahead and bypassed the ammeter as well when I performed the repair - so now - hopefully, it is smoother sailing.

[paulr]

Pardon if I read this wrong but aren’t you’re gonna swap to a 1-wire alt? this will never be a problem for you again. Of course you won’t have use of the ammeter bypassed or connected either way, but small price for ample charging.