3F Steering Pump Noise

This area is for posting questions/information concerning 1964-66 year Thunderbirds NO FOR SALE POSTINGS

Moderator: redstangbob

User avatar
XMas 64
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:46 pm

3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by XMas 64 »

The previous owner of my 64 Thunderbird had a new power steering pump installed, it has a 3F sticker on it so I can only assume it's a 3F pump but I know nothing about them. I have browsed to their web page and they have posted a recommended power steering fluids listing that they've developed from lab tests (https://www.cardone.com/docs/default-so ... fluids.doc). Reading a bit elsewhere it looks like either:

1. Their pumps are quite susceptible to poor fluids
2. There's a lot of crappy fluid out there

Their recommendation is to use the OEM suggested fluid which in our case is Type F transmission fluid as I understand it. The fluid in the system is definitely not red...it's a clear-ish (hard to tell in reservoir) fluid.

Bottom line is I'm getting terrible performance and a lot of noise out of the pump, its noisy and seems to be struggling a lot at idle, more than I'd expect. I'm wondering if it's too late given all the noise or if it is worth swapping it over to Type F transmission fluid as per their recommendation. They appear to have no customer support whatsoever.
1964 Whimbledon White Thunderbird Coupe VIN 4Y83Z116724
User avatar
XMas 64
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:46 pm

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by XMas 64 »

Found their support, cardone is the parent company.
1964 Whimbledon White Thunderbird Coupe VIN 4Y83Z116724
User avatar
XMas 64
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:46 pm

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by XMas 64 »

Cardone's tech support says that the issue to look for is restriction in the system. Remove the return flow and crank the engine with the return line running back into the fluid reservoir. If there's good steady flow then the pump is going bad, if it's spurting and surging then there's a restriction somewhere in the system, likely gearbox and that needs to be addressed.

This make sense?
1964 Whimbledon White Thunderbird Coupe VIN 4Y83Z116724
User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by RedBird64 »

Have you checked to see if the filter inthe housing is clogged or even collapsed? Most dont know it's even in there (I found it be accident) and it rarely gets changed.
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.
User avatar
XMas 64
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:46 pm

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by XMas 64 »

Had a look, looks to be in reasonable condition. I think the searching for restrictions is the right idea, with that in mind I've messed with throwing the car into neutral in a parking lot while rolling and giving the engine a few revs to supply a bit more pressure to the steering box...no improvement. My gut is pointing to steering box or a bad hose at this point.

The only other thing I can come up with is that possibly the sag of the front springs of about an inch is putting a bit more load on the system...but I think I'm reaching at that point. The steering is light and normal in straighter driving so I don't think the front end suspension/steering is contributing too much.
1964 Whimbledon White Thunderbird Coupe VIN 4Y83Z116724
User avatar
sseebart
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Northern California
Contact:

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by sseebart »

I believe the power steering on most of these cars lugs a bit at idle, but bumping up the revs should bring the steering back if all is well. Have you tried the wipers when the pump is laboring?

I think we're all kinda guessing here; the clues don't really pinpoint a failure with a specific part. Can you post a photo of the p/s pump? (A video with the noise would be even more helpful.) It's possible, I suppose, that the pump is a mismatch for the load (and that someone here can tell by looking and/or hearing).

Were it me, I'd start with the hoses (and low expectations), then move on to the pump. Bird Nest sells these refurbished for about $130. Worst case scenario is having to rebuild the steering box itself, but if you find yourself there, at least you'll have that nice warm feeling knowing the hoses are new and the pump is correct for the car. :-)

~Steve
User avatar
XMas 64
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:46 pm

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by XMas 64 »

Some more info, cardone's webpage lists the following as their current reman pump for a 64 bird.

http://m.cardone.com/#/Part.aspx?partID ... y=Steering

Part number is 20-9651.

The previous owner left the box for the part in the trunk, none of the numbers look like part numbers that are related but I guess it's possible the numbers have changed.

The other resource is a photo presumably of the core that was sent in for rebuild. The number in the photo doesn't match the one scribbled on the box, perhaps part of the core exchange, or possibly something else.

Image

Image

Image

I've attached a few pics of the pump installed as well as the line that returns to the reservoir which appears a little pinched, especially given the tiny diameter of it, is this anywhere near normal?

Image

Image

Image

Image


Finally videos of the pump at idle and with lifted revs while working the steering. To me I hear two different sounds, one is the needle or pump like sound that ticks or vibrates at idle with no steering input. The other is a more classic ford power steering pump working noisily. There really isn't any more assist from the pump with added revs, I'm thinking this means bad pump?

The wipers are slower on idle than with rpms.

"https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=619 ... 7IGGPP5IzQ"

"https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=619 ... Zyi1odJWjY"
1964 Whimbledon White Thunderbird Coupe VIN 4Y83Z116724
User avatar
paulr
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:03 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by paulr »

All those numbers are meaningless. It's a standard Eaton pump used on all Tbirds with A/C (until mid-65 sometime) and dozens of other vehicles. There is no Ford engineering number assigned to the part. 3F, Cardone, and other remanufacturers add their own numbers to the mess.

Kind of sounds like a bearing is going to go. I'd just get it rebuilt. Check with a Tbird vendor if you don't know anyone--someone like Pat Wilson or Bird Nest. That way, you've got a live contact you can talk to if the rebuild is unsatisfactory. Those big box brands are clueless and faceless. I agree with your statement above that the springs/suspension have nothing to do with the problem. (Front springs on these cars may be bowed but they are not worn out). Good luck.
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau HT
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson
User avatar
sseebart
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Northern California
Contact:

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by sseebart »

As Paul noted, this is a standard pump. The fittings all look nominal to me. This is my return line:

Image

Sounds to me like a new pump is in order. To be sure, you could put a stethoscope (or a long screwdriver) on the pump to confirm it is generating the noise.

Swapping out the pump is pretty simple; just keep track of the bolts and spacers. Follow the process in the manual for bleeding the system after it's back together.

Let us know how it goes.

~Steve
User avatar
paulr
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:03 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by paulr »

Steve speaks the truth!

I neglected to say, after rereading your OP, that f--up with the non-Type F trans fluid (not your fault, someone prior) is serious. I've never been in that situation but I have no doubt that it didn't do your system any favors for who knows how long. It's all got to be flushed somehow--I suppose with sacrificial Type F--until the system is cleared before you install a new/rebuilt pump. You're probably already on that. That issue, plus bleeding the air out; there's a "wheels up in the air method" described in the manual, I believe. Good luck.
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau HT
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson
User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by RedBird64 »

At a point many years ago, my pump was put togther wrong (rotor backwards) and it overheated many times.
After that, the pump would act up - chatter, grown, etc at idle especially when cold.
I ended up using a Synthetic Type F and it cured it so that's what I recommend to everyone.
It's amazing stuff!

Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.
User avatar
XMas 64
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:46 pm

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by XMas 64 »

Thanks for all the help guys.

1. My return line is not in the shape that sseebart's is...I'll replace the reservoir at the same time, can't see why I should leave the restriction in the system. That said, it is such a small line, I'm gathering these systems run heavy on pressure and very low on flow. But...the windshield wipers must depend on some rate, how fast do your windshield wipers go? The fastest speed on mine are what I'd call 'medium' on a modern car, how fast are most? I've no frame of reference.

2. I hate to say it, but Ford's are legendary for their groany steering, are these cars normally noisy like later Ford's?

3. I see Borgeson pumps are built from a Delphi 600 pump? Is this a better direction or should I just forget it and stick with the stock Eaton pump and all will work well provided other issues are not at play? Any opinions on Lares vs Cardone as a rebuilder?

4. After getting a bit further into things last night it looks like my top seal on my steering box is leaking, not horribly but it is leaking. Is the type F fluid thicker or thinner than a 'modern' power steering fluid? Any chance this could clear up following a fluid/pump change?
Last edited by XMas 64 on Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1964 Whimbledon White Thunderbird Coupe VIN 4Y83Z116724
User avatar
XMas 64
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:46 pm

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by XMas 64 »

Steve,

If I stick my finger down onto the pump it is very clear that its the source of the noise...zero doubt. Famous last words I know...but zero doubt. I'll say it again...zero doubt. Haha.
1964 Whimbledon White Thunderbird Coupe VIN 4Y83Z116724
User avatar
paulr
Posts: 1800
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:03 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by paulr »

XMas 64 wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:20 pm
1. I'll replace the reservoir at the same time, can't see why I should leave the restriction in the system. That said, it is such a small line, I'm gathering these systems run heavy on pressure and very low on flow. But...the windshield wipers must depend on some rate, how fast do your windshield wipers go? The fastest speed on mine are what I'd call 'medium' on a modern car, how fast are most? I've no frame of reference.

2. I hate to say it, but Ford's are legendary for their groany steering, are these cars normally noisy like later Ford's?

3. I see Borgeson pumps are built from a Delphi 600 pump? Is this a better direction or should I just forget it and stick with the stock Eaton pump and all will work well provided other issues are not at play? Any opinions on Lares vs Cardone as a rebuilder?

4. After getting a bit further into things last night it looks like my top seal on my steering box is leaking, not horribly but it is leaking. Is the type F fluid thicker or thinner than a 'modern' power steering fluid? Any chance this could clear up following a fluid/pump change?
1. Replace the reservoir? I'd keep it around for future stock value. It's not a restriction. The wipers should move fast at top speed; the cable is adjustable--something to check. You're right about pressure.
2. When all stock components are spec, it doesn't groan; maybe a small whine at full stop, but nothing like a GM howl.
3. You'll have an alignment geometry puzzle to build. Depends on how far away from stock you want to go. It could work. I'm pretty sure mine was rebuilt by Lares via Bird Nest; it's been excellent. I've had 2 bad rebuilds by Cardone. That's just me. YMMV.
4.Any fluid will leak from a leaky gearbox port on this system. Most '64s have rebuilt gearboxes by this time.

One thing not asked. Pulley/belt alignment on this front shaft must be perfect, not mostly for the belt's sake. Pay close attention to the spacers, etc.
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau HT
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson
User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: 3F Steering Pump Noise

Post by RedBird64 »

XMas 64 wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:20 pm Thanks for all the help guys.


2. I hate to say it, but Ford's are legendary for their groany steering, are these cars normally noisy like later Ford's?
Fords are legendary for PS noise, but that is with 80's+ models. Our pumps and all the pumps of the 60's are not known for being noisy like the junk they made later.
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.
Post Reply