Front end braking shudder

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stove
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by stove » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:24 am

Here is something you MUST check...
The compensating port in master cylinder must be completely clear when pedal is in released position. To check compensator port, remove master cylinder fill cover and watch the fluid in the cylinder as the brake pedal is moved. A "geyser" should be seen as the pedal is first depressed. If no geyser is seen, the compensating port is blocked, either by A MALADJUSTED BRAKE BOOSTER ROD, dirt or a swollen piston cup.

It should pop fluid up out of the reservoir like a backward rain drop.

Please do this test, and report back.
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hemicharger69
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by hemicharger69 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:29 am

The compensating port on the master cylinder is clear. A small pressure actuation droplet appears when I first press on the pedal.
1963 Ford Thunderbird, 390ci 4-bbl, 134K odo, purchased from original family owner Aug 2015.

hemicharger69
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by hemicharger69 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:22 am

This weekend, I raised the front end. With wheel and drum loosened, I applied and held the brakes as I tightened wheel nuts. The wheel spun but there was a slight sticky spot. Sticky enough to prevent spinning on its own but not so sticky the wheel would lock. It was sticky in the same spot during rotation approximately 90 degrees. But, I could hand spin the wheel through the sticky spot. The wheel bearings are new. The drum is new. The spindle is replaced. The brake shoes are new. The driver's side rotated freely. There was 5-10 degrees of play when I rocked the wheel while holding at 9 and 3 o'clock. Less than 5 degrees of play on the driver's side.

Something else I forgot to mention. When I replaced the drum and brake shoes, I put the shoes inside the drum to first test fit and they matched perfectly. I didn't test width but I'm pretty sure the shoes fit within the drum.

However improbable, I'm now thinking it's the hub. It's the only moving part that I didn't replace on the passenger side front wheel. Struts, steering linkage loose, bushings, etc, the car would shudder whether of not I was braking, right?

Really stupid, could it be the shocks?
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by ICON 1961 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:33 am

hemicharger69 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:22 am
However improbable, I'm now thinking it's the hub. It's the only moving part that I didn't replace on the passenger side front wheel. Struts, steering linkage loose, bushings, etc, the car would shudder whether of not I was braking, right?
I had the SAME problem with my 61, I had to tighten the steering linkage, Change all the front end bushings, and made sure the front stabilizer was sound, made sure the drums were ground true . My brake pads were good in the front/back. Also had the front alignment done. The results were fantastic, at first the car pulled to the right but after a few hundred miles she straighten out perfectly the car was safe to drive on the expressway. I was very happy with the end results.
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by Joe Johnston » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:35 am

I would be concerned with the
5-10 degrees of play when I rocked the wheel while holding at 9 and 3 o'clock. Less than 5 degrees of play on the driver's side.
and try to determine the source.
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by ICON 1961 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:50 am

Could be you may need upper/lower ball joints, I also forgot to mention I did replace both sides with upper/lower. It did make a BIG difference in the handling .
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GeoffInCarlsbad
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by GeoffInCarlsbad » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:30 pm

Hi:

This very problem drove me insane, and it turned out the problem was two-fold:

1) The drum was allegedly trued by an expert brake person. When I took this to a shop I grew to trust, I found the passenger side was not true/round
2) BUT, the real problem was that the shoes I purchased were not true to the round of the drums. You would think I would have that on both driver and passenger side, but alas, it turned out that I had the shoe arc'd properly to match a true round, and voila, no more shudder. However, I still have issues with my strut rod rubber bushings, but, the car drives and brakes in line, front end alignment fine, so I don't worry about it.

Lesson learned: check the shoe.
Geoff in Carlsbad CA
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Karl
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by Karl » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:20 pm

G'day.
Sorry to hear that the quick fix problem didn't work.

I don't think the shocks will be your problem for the shudder.
I would be concerned about the 5 - 10 deg movement, have another person move the wheel whilst you try to find where the movement is.
Is the wheel bearing done up as per the specs in the manual?
After you find out why there is movement and rectify this then come back to the shoes and drums. Shoes and drums won't give you 5 - 10 deg movement in the road wheel.
When looking at all the linkages don't forget the rubber mounted steering box, if they are worn you will get movement in them. I had a lot of movement in mine because they were soaked in oil and when I replaced them I had a better turning circle.

As far as the drums go, in the day when you purchased a new front drum it came with a new hub. They were riveted together at the point where the wheel stud exits the drum. The shoulder of the wheel stud was pinched down in four places to hold the drum to the hub. The drum and hub was then spun (true to the center of the hub) and the drum machined. When you purchased the new drum it would spin true. And yes you will have to have the shoes arced to the radius of the drum.

Now days you purchase the drum on its own. some people don't have any problems but some people do. It is all repairable you have to find out what the cause is.

You think that your hub could be causing the shuddering, In my mind if the car was shuddering whilst driving and not braking then yes it could be anything but the brakes. But in your case the car shudders when you brake and if the vibrations are in time with the wheel rotation then to me this is only the brakes.
You can always try a new hub, it may solve the problem.
Karl.
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by Karl » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:55 am

G'day hemicharger69.
I was thinking about your problem today. The brake drum has to run true to the axle. The brake drum could run like an ellipse, that is run up and down as the wheel rotates but still remain square to the axle.
If when you removed (or whoever removed the old brake drum) left a part of the old burring on one of the wheel studs then this may cause the brake drum to lean over so to speak and not sit flat against the hub. Instead of being at 90 deg to the axle it will be at a angle. This will cause the brake drum not only to run up and down but also to run in and out as the wheel rotates.
Check the mating face of the hub to make sure that the inner face of the brake drum is flush up against the hub.

Food for thought.
Karl.
1963 Thunderbird Hardtop

hemicharger69
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by hemicharger69 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:50 am

I'm thinking about just doing disc conversion at this point just to avoid all the headaches with these shuddering brakes.

Are these truly bolt on no modifications needed?

Any experience with these kits?
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by GeoffInCarlsbad » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:49 pm

If I had to do it all over again, I would exactly what you are doing: Go Disc Brakes!
Geoff in Carlsbad CA
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stubbie
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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by stubbie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:46 pm

I've heard some stories about Pirate Jacks Disk brake kits just recently. I'll look and see what it was as I can't remember at this point.

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Re: Front end braking shudder

Post by stubbie » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:25 pm


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