Eng oil pan gasket replacement

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RedBird64
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Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by RedBird64 »

Discovered some tips that might help the next person replace this gasket. The manual covers it but doesn't give all the details.

The manual states you should turn the eng so that all the crankshaft components are up and out of the way but doesn't say what that position is. It's TDC (zero degrees).
In that position you will only need to remove the sway bar to get the pan out. No need to lift the eng or even loosen up the mounts.
Also, contrary to what the FSM says, you can leave the oil pump on. Just remove the pickup tube (2, half inch bolts) and you can pull the pan forward and easily drop it down.
The manual tells you to remove the entire pump and drop it in the pan but reinstalling it and getting the drive shaft from the distributor into position is a bear. It's also possible it will lose its prime if it's removed (have a story to share about this but I'm still too scarred emotionally to share it yet).
:drinking:
Trust me, it is much easier just to R&R the pickup tube. The gasket for it comes with the pan gasket set.

While your doing the pan gasket, it's a good time to replace the rear main seal (if it's older) and also the oil filter mount gasket (if it's leaking). The latter is always fairly easy to replace but accessibility is even better with the pan off.

Have to say, after laying under there for hours with oil dripping into in my face, I much prefer the taste of synthetic to dino. I don't think it burns your eyes as bad either. :black:

Cheers!

Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.
bbogue
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by bbogue »

Scott,

Thanks for the information on your oil pan gasket replacement. I expect to apply it on my 61’s engine, 7 years and 9000 miles since rebuilt. My last oil change (to 10W30 synthetic Amsoil ZRod, experiment) seems to have resulted in more leaks than before the change. The leaks aren’t bad, just annoying. Tightening pan bolts hasn’t helped much. At 90% of max torque, the gasket is bulging outward in a few places. I plan to replace the gasket with a Felpro Felcoid rubber coated fiber OS11701D or 1817 gasket and go back to Valvoline VR1 non-synthetic oil afterwards. I’d prefer not to have to lift the engine so I may try your technique of removing the sway bar. I have a beefy aftermarket damper so this may still not give enough clearance, we will see. Yours is an excellent suggestion also about removing the oil pickup only, leaving the pump in place. That’s my plan, too.
Do you recall which cylinder at TDC is necessary for the crankshaft to clear the pan? I read elsewhere number 4 cylinder which makes sense given its position at the rear of the engine.
Have you any other advice?

Thanks again.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
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saenzm
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by saenzm »

Hey Bill,

Scott's post is what motivated me to finally do this job. But I needed to completely remove the oil pan for a leak repair. I did this last year but I do remember that lifting the engine wasn't nearly as bad as it sounds. If you have 2 small pieces of 2x4 and a jack then you're all set. Luckily, I took a snapshot after I installed a new pickup tube. In the pic you can see one of the pieces of wood wedged in between the engine and motor mount. Hopefully it gives you an idea of where the oil pump and pickup tube bolts are located if you need to blindly stick your hand in there.

My biggest worry was lining up the motor mount bolts as I lowered it. But they smoothly went back in. Also, I concur with Scott, expect oil on your face. Maybe even some in your ear!
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-migs

1962 Hardtop ...perpetual WIP
bbogue
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by bbogue »

Saenzm,

Thanks very much for the additional information. I’m not concerned about lifting the engine after engine mount and freeze plug replacement. This may be easier for me than removing my beefy sway bar. Hopefully I won’t have to remove the radiator hoses. We’ll see. I wasn’t aware that the pump/pickup was so close to the front of the pan. This helps with R&R of the pickup, I hope.

Based on information here and elsewhere, I currently plan to purchase both the Felpro gaskets mentioned earlier, installing the one I like best. I’ll use Permatex High Tack gasket sealant to hold the gasket in place on the pan during installation and Ultra Black in a couple places on the block at the front and rear where the surface is uneven. No additional sealant is planned between the block and gasket. I may try Felpro’s Snap-ups to guide and hold the pan/gasket in place while I reinstall the pickup but I doubt they’re long enough to leave enough space so my backup pan is a few bolts with the heads cut off and the pan supported by whatever I can figure.

Any thoughts on this plan?

Thanks again.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
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saenzm
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by saenzm »

Bill,
Those Snap-ups look pretty handy, sure wish I had something like this. Any type of helping hand is a plus when you're trying to balance the oil pan and keep the gasket in place while inserting bolts! I did almost exactly what you plan: used Permatex to hold the gasket in place as I held it up with one hand and inserted a couple bolts with the other. Does get a bit messy as the gasket slides (unless you have cold steady hands). But it works. My one problem was over tightening the bolts. Make sure you follow the torque specs exactly. I broke a gasket at the bolt holes and I didn't think I applied much pressure.

Here's some spec info:

http://boxwrench.net/specs/ford_352-428.htm
-migs

1962 Hardtop ...perpetual WIP
bbogue
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by bbogue »

Saenzm,
Thanks very much. I hope the tacky sealant will keep the gasket from sliding while I’m installing the oil pickup. I may add a couple zip ties through bolt holes for additional sliding resistance, cutting them off before installing bolts. It seems to me that installing the pickup is a 2 handed job. How you did it with one while holding up the pan with the other seems a miracle to me. I plan to figure some way to support the pan if the Snap-ups are too short so I have both hands for pickup installation. I’ll try some dry runs and figure out something. Regarding torque, my shop manual shows a maximum of 13 ft-lbs. I hope not to get near that number on the new gasket. I’m at 140 in-lbs now and have bulging with a cork gasket. The Felpro gaskets I’m buying are rubber coated fiber which I assume is tougher than current cork composite and the #1817 is a performance gasket with a little steel to prevent crushing. This one will likely be my first choice.
I’ll place my parts order now and wait for a hot weather week when I won’t be driving the car and my garage is nice and cool.
Thanks again.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
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saenzm
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by saenzm »

Bill,
I'm glad I could provide some insight. I kept avoiding this particular task, but it turned out pretty straight forward once you get in there. I like to call it high-level tinkering. As for the oil pickup, I installed it with the oil pan completely out of the way. It would definitely be a miracle to hold up the pan while doing that LOL. I may have initially written that in a confusing way. I meant to describe the step where I fastened the oil pan back on the block. But I'm pretty sure you'll find no problem replacing the pickup as the front of the pan drops. Yeah that #1817 gasket seems the way to go. I used the old cork ones and those need to be handled with care.

Best of luck.
-migs

1962 Hardtop ...perpetual WIP
bbogue
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by bbogue »

saenzm wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 9:57 am As for the oil pickup, I installed it with the oil pan completely out of the way...I'm pretty sure you'll find no problem replacing the pickup as the front of the pan drops.
Eureka!!!

Thanks.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
bbogue
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by bbogue »

Oil pan gasket replacement is proceeding, albeit slowly due to my age, attention span, endurance and life distractions. I’m at a standstill now since I noticed that after filling the oil pump with oil before reinstallation, it leaked from the housing plate. There does not appear to be a gasket so some leakage would be inevitable it seems to me. This is a 7 year old pump with 7K miles.
I’ve placed an inquiry with Melling. Any thoughts?

Bill

Never mind. I contacted a professional FE Engine builder I trust. These pumps can be expected to leak, by design since there is no gasket, just 2 machined surfaces bolted together. For peace of mind, he endorsed my going back with a new pump so that’s what I’m doing.
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
RAVEN
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by RAVEN »

Every pump I ever installed had a gasket at the interface of the pump to block. You do not want to reduce the possible oil or pressure at the pump.
CDN Member since 1975 #2086
Flock: 1964 Landau Original Family Owned
1964 Sr Convertible "RAVEN"
Past: 2003 Blk Lab "RAVEN" "RIP"Nov 15/17
1964 Lincoln vin4Y86N00007
1964 Red Convertible
bbogue
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by bbogue »

Raven,
There is a gasket between the pump and engine block. The leakage I noted was at the base plate of the pump itself where there is no gasket, only 2 machined surfaces held together with 4 machine screws.

Here is Melling’s response to my inquiry about leakage at the pump base plate.
“There is no pump to cover gasket need, with the M-57 pump so leakage from the cover plate is normal.”

I filled a new pump with oil and set it on my workbench. There is much less leakage at the base plate compared to my old pump. I’m more comfortable now that I’ve decided to replace my old pump with this new one.

A lousy design IMHO.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
RAVEN
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by RAVEN »

Last time I assembled a motor, I verified the condition of the pump and body interface plate. I took a piece of plate glass and wet sandpaper of approx 600 grit and lapped the unit. I verified no abrasive was left and packed the unit with grease. Upon start up I had 100% oil flow and NO leaks, that I was aware of.
Just my 2 cents, and we have no pennies in Canada any more.
CDN Member since 1975 #2086
Flock: 1964 Landau Original Family Owned
1964 Sr Convertible "RAVEN"
Past: 2003 Blk Lab "RAVEN" "RIP"Nov 15/17
1964 Lincoln vin4Y86N00007
1964 Red Convertible
bbogue
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by bbogue »

For the benefit of those interested, here is a summary of my oil pan gasket replacement. Sorry, it’s long.

Placed engine at top of stroke on #4 cylinder for oil pan/crankshaft clearance.
Drained coolant and oil.
Loosened transmission mount bolts and exhaust header to exhaust pipe bolts.
Removed cooling fan cover, fan shroud and upper radiator hose.
Removed bell housing cover behind oil pan. Perhaps unnecessary.
Raised engine with floor jack using padded 2X6 under oil pan. Observed lower radiator hose so as to not over stress.
Used 1 1/2” wooden blocks under motor mounts to support engine.
Noted that oil pump and pickup removal is not required for R/R of oil pan. Did remove mine due to interference with windage tray installed during rebuild. Did not reinstall windage tray. Unnecessary for a street car.
Found the pins (nails) in rear main side seals protruding above the seals, compromising the pan gasket. Reset them with a punch.
Found uneven joints at timing chain cover to block interface. Faired in the high sides with a Dremel tool.
Decided not to replace rear main seal since I found enough other potential sources to explain the leakage I had observed.
Acetone was helpful in removing old sealant. Scraped and cleaned, numerous passes on the block.
Chased all bolt threads.
Cleaned and flattened all pan rails, especially at bolt holes.
Noted that the old (7 years, 9K miles) oil pump leaked when filled with oil. Melling indicated “some” leakage is normal. I replaced the pump with a new one that leaked a lot less.
Used Felpro 1817 pan gasket…it is slightly small on my Milodon pan.
Applied Permatex High Tack to pan rail, installed gasket and held it in place with clothespins and bolts in bolt holes. Let it cure overnight.
Buttered timing cover to block joints and ends of rear main side seals with Permatex Ultra Black.
Applied High Tack to block side of gasket and pan bolt threads.
Used a few bolts with heads cut off installed in the block to help guide the pan and gasket during installation.
Torqued bolts to 120 in-lbs. Bolts are flange headed. Did not see any bulges in the gasket.
Did not add oil for at least 24 hours.
No oil pressure at startup. Yikes!
Pulled distributor and discovered I had missed the distributor shaft with the oil pump rod during pump installation. Even though I checked with a boroscope, a glob of grease on the end of the shaft fooled me. Ugh.
Repeated oil pan gasket work. Mineral spirits removed the high tack sealant pretty well.
R/R oil pump.
Primed oil pump with electric drill and 1/4 extension taped to 1/4 thin-walled deep socket. Remembered to turn counter-clockwise.
Replaced damaged distributor drive gear. See 61-63 forum for details if interested.
Reinstalled distributor. Only required a half dozen tries. Was careful to reinstall exactly as removed. No startup issues.
No leaks after first 20 mile test. Yippee!
Whew! A saga!

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
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saenzm
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Re: Eng oil pan gasket replacement

Post by saenzm »

Bill,and
Thanks for the awesome update and for all the details. It's a good feeling to get rid of such an oil leak. And congrats on a job well done.
-migs

1962 Hardtop ...perpetual WIP
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