Fuel Injection!

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sseebart
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by sseebart » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:48 pm

RedBird64 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:30 pm
One thing that none of the video's show is the noise the injectors themselves make. You don't notice it when driving but at stops it's very pronounced.
So, the radio's broken? ;-)

Actually, this is a big downside for me. It's nice when modern upgrades work unobtrusively. Still, I think we both agree the noise is not a deal-breaker. Loved the solution for quieting the pump.

While I have my motor out, I may take the opportunity to install the bung for the O2 sensor. Do you know the part number/supplier for yours?

~Steve

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RedBird64
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:00 pm

sseebart wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:48 pm
RedBird64 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:30 pm
One thing that none of the video's show is the noise the injectors themselves make. You don't notice it when driving but at stops it's very pronounced.
So, the radio's broken? ;-)

Actually, this is a big downside for me. It's nice when modern upgrades work unobtrusively. Still, I think we both agree the noise is not a deal-breaker. Loved the solution for quieting the pump.

While I have my motor out, I may take the opportunity to install the bung for the O2 sensor. Do you know the part number/supplier for yours?

~Steve
I'm not thrilled with the noise but I can really only hear it at idle. It kinda sounds like BB's being dropped one by one and very quickly into a frying pan or a bunch of loose lifters.
I was shocked at the difference in the pump. It went from stupid loud to nearly silent (cant hear with eng running) when I tested it by just dangling it by the hoses.

I bought this bung and plug but didn't use it: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JY ... UTF8&psc=1
Funny you mention the radio. It was dead so I had it repaired several years ago. It "works" but the sound is tinny and terrible - and I don't mean for a stock radio. The orig radio sounded OK but now it's almost too bad to turn on. I suspect it has some bad capacitors in it so I may open it up and try to fix it. Or, the shop that did the work last time can gut it and install all modern internals so and I may have to break down and go that route.
Frankly, I'd rather have the original sound.
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

64ZCODE
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by 64ZCODE » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:30 pm

Hey Scott. Great postings, by the way, a real contribution! The last post I see is Feb 22nd. Are there postings after this date? Really interested in your assessment of the performance of the fuel injected beast versus stock, and also an idea of how much $ you've sunk into this project. Thanks, Doug
Life is short, my friends, so take my advice
Pull down your pants and slide on the ice

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RedBird64
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:01 am

Hi Doug, thanks for the kind words.
It runs better and better as it "learns" how to fuel. I haven't posted much lately because I ran in to a problem with it running hot at idle. It's been down while I got the radiator recored and ordered a new expansion tank (which is being painted right now). While it was down, Idecided to change the oil and found that my old oil pan's plug was beyond sealing ever again. So I just finished up installing a new pan.
I figured the radiator would have me down about a week but it's been 3+ weeks now. Everything is done except for the expansion tank and I hope to get that back from the body shop tomorrow.

I couldn't be much happier with the performance and function of the whole EFI.
It starts on the first or second cylinder to come up - hot or cold.
There's way more power or torque available.
During some of the first runs, it had some lean spots, hesitations, stalls and rough running issues. You just have to drive it so it can learn its way out of those - which it does. It's kind of a hoot to feel it get better and better until it's perfect.
Once I got those drivability items settled, I started playing with hard launches. It launches best at about 1/2 throttle or a little more. So I was in a big parking lot, repeatedly launching, stopping, lauching, starting, etc. After about a dozen cycles, it starts squealing the tires - at half throttle! It never did that before!! I can feel the whole body lift and flex.
Power on the freeway is fantastic. Much more response and even climbing hills around my neighborhood takes a lot less throttle and noise from the engine. It just doesn't seem to have to work as hard.

To get the carbureted engine to run decent, the carb was tuned very rich. This is due in part to my lowered compression (about 8.3:1).
The rear valance over the exhaust tips would turn black. With the EFI, there is no smoke. There's no black around the tail pipes at all.
I had a strange vibration that I've been chasing for decades. I've replaced just about everything under the car the spins and was down to pulling the trans for inspection. when I first installed the EFI, I could still feel it but after the "learning process" worked on it for 20 miles or so, it seems to have virtually eliminated it. There's maybe 2% of the vibe left and the ECM is not done learning.

As far as cost, the Master installation kit with fuel pump, gas tank fittings, etc. is $1200 and I have about another $150~$200 in bits and pieces (I added a fuel pressure gauge, some nice clamps for fuel lines, wiring accesories and a few other bits for a tidy installation). So somewhere around $1400.

I've driven this car about 2000 miles over the last 25 years. I just couldn't get it to run well enough that I didn't hate it.
Now I want to drive it all the time!

Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

64ZCODE
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by 64ZCODE » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:03 am

Interesting how inefficient carbs are compared to fuel injection. Scott, is your 390 stock in all other respects? Doug
Life is short, my friends, so take my advice
Pull down your pants and slide on the ice

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RedBird64
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:13 pm

64ZCODE wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:03 am
Interesting how inefficient carbs are compared to fuel injection. Scott, is your 390 stock in all other respects? Doug
No, not really stock Doug (OK, not at all). I rebuilt it about 1982. At 90K it was burning oil and always pinged real bad. If I tried to drive it very far the lifters would go flat.
To fix the pinging I lowered the compression using 8,5:1 forged aluminum turbo pistons. At that time I also installed an Iskedarian cam - which fell apart about 10K later! I stuck with stock heads at that time.
So at that point I gave it a light rebuild with new bearings, cam, etc.

I've done further mods over the years.
Presently it has:

Edelbrock Performer cam (Not the RPM model)
Edelbrock intake (again, not the RPM version), lifters, timing chain and 72cc heads.
Ford Duraspark distributor driven by MSD 6AL capacitive discharge ign control system with MSD epoxy filled coil.
1,76 ratio aluminum roller rockers and hardened shaft assemblies (forget what brand)
Power Force Harmoic balancer
Balanced rotating assy.
High volume oil pump driven by Ford Racing chrome molly drive shaft
Bone stock, all stainless steel exhaust with all resonators and mufflers
"Tuff Stuff" brand 100A alt. and high flow alum. water pump. (Alt upgrade required for increase electrical load of EFI & fan)
Deraile 2 speed, 18" electric fan controlled by EFI - Still need to see how this works out..

If it were easy, I would changed out the cam for a roller model. I've also considered FPA headers but I really don't want that header "sound".

Outwardly the car looks and (mostly) sounds completely stock

Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

WhiteThunder
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by WhiteThunder » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:24 pm

I'm glad to hear your Sniper install went well! I just finished getting mine together and I had a similar experience. The engine cranked for maybe 1 second before roaring to life. As I drive more, it keeps getting smoother and smoother. I'm going to start getting into the Sniper software tuning to massage it a bit.
I opted to install an Aeromotive Phantom Stealth in-tank fuel pump. This cut down on the noise significantly. In fact, you can barely even hear it when its priming before start-up. I haven't noticed the injector clicks, but my exhaust is pretty loud.
I love the fact that with the air cleaner on, very few people can even tell there is anything different going on. Heck, even when it's off, some people still think the TBI unit is a carb.

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RedBird64
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:32 pm

WhiteThunder wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:24 pm
I'm glad to hear your Sniper install went well! I just finished getting mine together and I had a similar experience. The engine cranked for maybe 1 second before roaring to life. As I drive more, it keeps getting smoother and smoother. I'm going to start getting into the Sniper software tuning to massage it a bit.
I opted to install an Aeromotive Phantom Stealth in-tank fuel pump. This cut down on the noise significantly. In fact, you can barely even hear it when its priming before start-up. I haven't noticed the injector clicks, but my exhaust is pretty loud.
I love the fact that with the air cleaner on, very few people can even tell there is anything different going on. Heck, even when it's off, some people still think the TBI unit is a carb.
Great to hear you were able to get an in-tank pump to work. Can I ask which pump you used? Maybe the 18638?
I was concerned that it wouldn't go deep enough for our oddly shaped tanks. Did you have to do any mods to it?
Go any pics of the install!?

Thanks in advance,
Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by WhiteThunder » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:12 am

I used the Aeromotive Phantom Stealth 200 (18689). On the engine dyno, my FE came in at 450hp/490ftlb so I should have probably gotten the 340, but the 200 has been working fine so far for street use.
As delivered, this pump goes down to 11” deep tanks and of course our Birds have 12” deep tanks! I bought the extension kit from Aeromotive. If I did it again, I would have fabricated my own extension as the kit from Aeromotive was way overpriced and was nothing special except for the extra foam. All you would need to do is weld an extension bar on the pump bracket, get some longer tubing and longer wires and you’ll basically have everything in the extension kit.

I placed the pump on the passenger side of the tank (I bought a brand new tank) so I could retain my factory sending unit and float arm (I just sealed off the old supply line). The kit comes with spacers you can put on top of the tank to give the pump bulkhead clearance from the body. I, however, chose a different route and likely most people may not agree with. I cut a clearance hole in the body above the tank for the pump bulkhead to stick through. I then ran aluminum supply and return lines down through the little hole where the sending unit wires come in. I am not a huge fan of having the fuel lines inside the trunk, but I preferred it to having the tank sitting almost 1” lower if using the spacers.
I installed an inertia switch on the fuel pump relay control circuit. This will shut off the pump if impact exceeds 6-7Gs. With the hard lines in the trunk and the inertia switch, I feel it is a safe enough setup. Not significantly different than having a fuel cell in the trunk like a lot of cars do.

Aeromotive has just came out with a new style Stealth kit that using the sending unit for supply/return. They don’t offer a generic kit yet, but might be a better option than the 18698.

For the O2 sensor, I bought a weld in bung for $2-3 from Summit. I would highly recommend using that over the clamp style that came with the Sniper. Welding in the bung was incredibly easy and makes the install look much cleaner, in my opinion. I am a terrible welder and my welds would not win a beauty contest but they do the job.
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RedBird64
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:08 am

Thanks for the info WT.
I plan on having the bung welded in if or when I ever pull the H pipe some day.

Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

crashchoate
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by crashchoate » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:28 pm

So Redbird I went ahead and ordered the 140 amp alternator. I am in the process of cleaning up the engine and removing items that I don’t think I will need. So while I was removing the old alternator I went ahead and removed the old wiring for the alternator. I may not be correct but on a 64 model all the power runs through the amp gauge that feeds the distribution block.
I believe you said your amp gauge doesn’t read correctly anymore. What if you take the gauge power wire and run it directly off the battery. I would think that it would read correctly then, and should be able to tell if it’s charging or not.

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RedBird64
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:33 pm

Hi Crash!
in effect, that's what I am doing. The ammeter reads wrong because I have several loads connected directly to the battery, rather than being tied into the distribution point. So those loads aren't going through the ammeter. It read wrong before the new alt too.
I haven't been paying much attention to it but I think the meter usually just sits in the middle. (I'll double check that)

Your really going to like that single wire alt!

Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

crashchoate
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by crashchoate » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:36 pm

Wonder if you connected the gauge wire to the solenoid for the starter if it could work.

I figured that the alternator would be awesome. Just bc I have a problem with just the headlights dimming just driving and coming to a stop. I know that sucker was weak. Hopefully that will also take care of my power drain. I can’t let it sit over night without the battery being dead.

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paulr
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by paulr » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:34 pm

crashchoate wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:36 pm

I figured that the alternator would be awesome. Just bc I have a problem with just the headlights dimming just driving and coming to a stop. I know that sucker was weak. Hopefully that will also take care of my power drain. I can’t let it sit over night without the battery being dead.
I bumped up to a Motorcraft 65 amp alternator a few years back and irrespective of that rebuilt my headlight circuit to accommodate halogen/LED lights and end the fading and blackouts. But, it was the installation of relays into the circuit that accounts for the correction because distance to the lights is now shortened by 3/4 (skipping the switch) and, measured volts is way higher because of them. I'm only saying it assuming you haven't added relays to your circuit yet. Correct me, if that's wrong.
Wonder if you connected the gauge wire to the solenoid for the starter if it could work.
I also have this question. I love all these questions. 5 years ago I was asking this board for thoughts about upping the rating of the stock alternators and got crickets or worse. Now, people are talking about the future. This is great!
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau HT
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson

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RedBird64
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Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:11 am

So I actually took a close look at where the ammeter sits while the eng is running and it's in the middle, or maybe ever so slightly to the left. Pressing the brake pedal shows a discharge.
With the eng off, turning on any load causes the meter to show a discharge just like before.

Electrically, the wire for the other side of the meter (input) is connected direclty to the battery because I have a 4 awg jumper from from the feed wire at the back of the alt to the battery connection at the solenoid.

I'm glad I have the new alt. When the cooling fan kicks on the startup current is huge. The eng idle drops significantly before the EFI's Idle Air Control (IAC) corrects it.

Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

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