Fuel Injection!

This area is for posting questions/information concerning 1964-66 year Thunderbirds NO FOR SALE POSTINGS

Moderator: redstangbob

User avatar
paulr
Posts: 1462
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:03 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by paulr » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:45 am

Any concerns over body flex regarding the supply-side line as you have to avoid the flexible rubber joints like on the OEM side?

(Oh, yeah, and dangle all the participles ya want. I could care less but, watch out for Steve; he's a bear!)
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau HT
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson

User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:12 pm

Not really, The front corner is overlapped by the sub frame so it's stiff and the line will have plenty of length along the bottom and the eng side line (of which I'm changing the routing from the pic) will go all the way up to the underside of the cowl,
Between those two long runs it would have plenty of room to twist during slaloming events.
I always figured Ford made that line in multiple pieces for ease of assembly anyway. I started having a heck of a time once I tried threading it into the eng bay.

I'm going to rework the eng end to get rid of one 90 degree bend and replace the last couple of bends that started to colapse the tubing.
I used a hand held bender for the back and one of those spring benders for the front. The spring thing is good for a bend of less than 45 degrees or a large arc but it's no good for a sharp bend.

Here's a comparison of the bend quality between the two devices:
Image

Tubing benders better (oh that felt good).
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

User avatar
paulr
Posts: 1462
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:03 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by paulr » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:35 pm

RedBird64 wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:12 pm
Between those two long runs it would have plenty of room to twist during slaloming events.
I always figured Ford made that line in multiple pieces for ease of assembly anyway.


Tubing benders better (oh that felt good).
Yeah, maybe good for line installers; sux for us. That hidden 5" rubber under the front fender is one of the worst things on the car.

Nice having a tube bender for this work.
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau HT
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson

User avatar
sseebart
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Northern California
Contact:

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by sseebart » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:06 pm

RedBird64 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:43 pm
Bit of a setback today. My original plan was to use the gas tank drain fitting for the return line but after looking closer, that isn't the best way to go. While it's technically feasible, I would have to make a metal line that would run very close to the exhaust. A rubber line would cook and the routing just isn't good.
So I dropped the tank (took 30 minutes) and will drill a hole next to the existing sending unit. I'll use the existing fuel line as the return line and simply move the existing short rubber line that now goes to the tank supply to this new port. I wont have to change any hard lines in back or even the rubber one. The only new hard lines I'll have to make is for the entirely new supply line.
So the nearly new tank is out again and full of water and degreaser. After it soaks overnight, I'll drain, rinse and refill with water so I can drill the tank.
Having the tank out also gives me great access for mounting the EFI fuel pump and will make the whole job easier.

S
This is the part of the mod that has had me running scared. Once I drop the tank on my car, there will be rust to fix--and I don't know how deep that rabbit-hole-mission-creep goes.

Is there any reason you didn't route the new line alongside the old? Would love a photo of the clips you'll be using to hold the new line in place.

~Steve

User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:33 pm

paulr wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:35 pm
That hidden 5" rubber under the front fender is one of the worst things on the car.

Nice having a tube bender for this work.
I am seriously considering cutting the orig line back a few inches and grafting on a new piece of solid line up to the EFI.



sseebart wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:06 pm
This is the part of the mod that has had me running scared. Once I drop the tank on my car, there will be rust to fix--and I don't know how deep that rabbit-hole-mission-creep goes.

Is there any reason you didn't route the new line alongside the old? Would love a photo of the clips you'll be using to hold the new line in place.

~Steve
Do you mean rust in the tank? I have a newer tank but when I replaced it a couple of years ago I found that the orig tank was nearly spotless inside. I would never have guessed it to be so clean. I was just concerned that a 50 y/o tank might rust through and leak while we were away and dump 20 gallon of ethyl on the garage floor for the pilot light in the water heater to play with.

In reagards to the routing, I think that would be feasable but but in my mind I thought it would be harder because there isn't room under the little protective cover that's just forward of the back tire and I was concerned about clearance in the front as well. In reastrospect it probably would have been the better way to go because I would not thave ended up pulling both fender liners.
I came up with a plan to use these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-1979-Chev ... 2749.l2649. One "hump" would carry the fuel line while the other will carry the electrical. I think this will look very clean or almost OEM from underneath.
I'd probably route it as you describe if I could do it over though.

I'll post some pics of the pump and lines when I get all the rest of the parts to finish.
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:29 pm

While I'm waiting on plumbing parts, I'll continue on with the other steps.
Today I modified the linkage. There is no kit to adapt our stock throttle rod to a Holley linkage so I purchased one of the kits from jegs: https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15730/1 ... UvEALw_wcB

I cut the end of the rod off and used a 10-32 die to thread the end (not shown)
Image

You simply attach the ball to the EFI's linkage and screw the quick release onto the end of your throttle rod. Makes a nice professional connection that wont come apart accidentally. (new thorttle rods are readily available if you ever want to go back to your stock carb). You could even just use a piece of 10/32 All-thread.
Image
I also bent a jog into the rod to better allign the linkage.

You'll have to shorten your air cleaner stud as well.

Next: wiring! (Yay?)
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

User avatar
sseebart
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Northern California
Contact:

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by sseebart » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:41 pm

RedBird64 wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:33 pm
Do you mean rust in the tank?
No, I have rust in the trunk, brought on by a perforation somewhere under the rear vent. So, for EFI, I know I need to drop the tank, pull the rear window and vent, fix the rust there, then fix the rust in the truck. Ug. Will be nice, though, to have a dry trunk after washing the car!

~Steve

User avatar
sseebart
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Northern California
Contact:

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by sseebart » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:43 pm

RedBird64 wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:29 pm
While I'm waiting on plumbing parts, I'll continue on with the other steps.
Today I modified the linkage. There is no kit to adapt our stock throttle rod to a Holley linkage so I purchased one of the kits from jegs: https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15730/1 ... UvEALw_wcB

I cut the end of the rod off and used a 10-32 die to thread the end (not shown)
Image

You simply attach the ball to the EFI's linkage and screw the quick release onto the end of your throttle rod. Makes a nice professional connection that wont come apart accidentally. (new thorttle rods are readily available if you ever want to go back to your stock carb). You could even just use a piece of 10/32 All-thread.
Image
I also bent a jog into the rod to better allign the linkage.

You'll have to shorten your air cleaner stud as well.

Next: wiring! (Yay?)
Threading that rod is a good solution--safe and secure.

I know you don't run a stock manifold with the water jacket spacer. Where do you route the heater hose?

~Steve

User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:22 pm

Steve, since the water just flowed straight through the spacer, I installed a single hose that runs by it.
Image

Since I'm still waiting for parts, I started on the wiring - the ugliest part of this thing.

It needs a good 12V gin source before the resistor wire. Do you know where you have to get that? From right behind the ign switch!
There's no nice way to do it either so I used the least invasive or hack type of tap into the Red/Grn wire, I peeled back some insulation and soldered it. Really hated doing that but it's all I could come up with. I wrapped it in Electrical tape after the pic.
Image
Getting good flow on a 50 y/o wire isn't easy.

I also routed the new ign wire and the EFI's display wire thorugh the Firewall. The display will reside in my glove box.

The big challenge I have now is making this UGLY abomination look OK in the eng. compartment. It has to be place near the back of the throttle body, probably on the fire wall.
(Spooled blue wire goes back to fuel pump)
Image
Pic doesn't do it justice. There's also a bunch of big clunky connectors for this harness, an option for Elect. ign and all the sensors to deal with.
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:45 pm

Been cold and snowy here but finally got back to work.

One thing you'll need to do is remove the old mechanical pump and install a block off plate like this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Polished-Alumi ... :rk:1:pf:0

Next, the tank was installed with the new lines plumbed in.
Image

It's very hard to get pics of the pump and filters underneath. They are mounted up in the axle area behind the rear seat.
Here's the pump and its primary (finest) filter. The rubber line makes a 90 degree downward to the filter. The hard line follow the same path that the old fuel oine does on the other side of the car.
Image

There's also a "sticks and rocks" filter to the left of the pump (filter is before pump). The other side of this filer connects to tank.
Image

Here's the rubber line from the pump going to the filter after it. Then it attaches to the hard lines and travels forward.
Image

At the front wheel well I removed the liner and ran the line and fuel pump power into the eng compartment. I installed a fuel pressure gauge just in case there were problems. (You can see the gauge with the hood up if you look down next to the hood spring.
Image

The 12V supply for the pump used a supplied wire that I ran through 3/8" DOT air brake line for protection. I also found some nice little 3/8" double hump stainless steel line clamps on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-1979-Chev ... :rk:2:pf:0 to secure them.
Image


The return line uses the old carb supply line. Here's where you can take a huge short-cut if you want.
I connected a new hard line to the end of the old fuel line where it enters and short piece of rubber hose to make a corner. You can see the brass compression coupler at the bottom where the connection is made.
Image
You could skip the hard line and easily run the supplied rubber lne all the way down to the old metal fuel line.
Of course, when it comes time to replace that rubber line, the wheel well liner would have to be removed.
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

User avatar
sseebart
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Northern California
Contact:

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by sseebart » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:06 pm

Nice, clean installation. Thanks for putting together this guide.

~Steve

User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:51 pm

Your're very welcome Steve and thanks for the kind words!

The instructions for wiring are very good so I wont go into all that. I made every attempt to hide wiring and connectors but it's impossibe to get rid of all the evidence. If you want your eng bay to look concourse after the EFI install, it isn't going to happen.

I ran the display wiring through the firewall and snaked it into my center console.
Heck, it even worked.
Image
Not permanent, most of the time it will reside in the glove box.

Before attempting to start and before covering all the lines up in the wheel wells, I applied 60 PSI to the supply line to check for leaks. I'm not so worried about he return line as it see's less than 30 PSI. After that I put everything together, double checked connections and purged the fuel line using the EFI's pump.

Using the tough-pad screen, I went through the steps of selecting eng size, ign.type, cam profile, etc.

Then I hit the starter and something amazing happened..
It started! In fact either the first or second cylinder to come up fired it off and it settled into a 1000 RPM burble.
The eng ran smoother than normal and I let it get up to operating temp (160) where the EFI's computer starts to learn.
I still need to adjust the idle and mostly, I need to just drive it so it can learn more.
Unfortunately it's still ugly outside and the ground is covered with a soupy mixture of slush, salt and grit.
THrottle response is incredible and the eng sounds different when you rev it.
So I'll be waitng patiently (not) for better weather to take it out.
But for now, I'm thrilled.

Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:45 pm

Inertia Switch

While I'm waiting for the snow, salt and grit to go away, I'll tell you about this extra step I took.
Modern EFI cars have these switches in case you're in an accident. They shut down the fuel pump so it doesn't keep pushing 60 PSI of fuel after a wreck.
The kit doesn't come with this switch but I think it's a good idea. I bought a used Ford part from eBay with a pig tail for $17. I installed the switch without connecting it and drove around enough to make sure it wouldn't false-trip. I also played with it on the bench to make sure it worked.
They are designed to be wired in series with the fuel pump but the wiring seemed very puny to me and I really hated to cut into the EFI's fuel pump wire. So instead, I put it in the "Ign hot" circuit (soldered and heat-shrinked). There's very little current flowing through that circuit (just an enable really) so the small wiring is plenty sufficient.
In a collision the EFI will be turned off immediately and hence, the fuel pump.

Here's the switch (common to every Ford built over many years). Red button on top is reset if tripped.
Image
Still need to clean up the routing of wires and hoses...

Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

User avatar
RedBird64
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Location: Bothell Wa.

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by RedBird64 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:30 pm

I was able to adjust some of the heavy throttle issue out of it but to get it as light as I like it, I had to add a "counter" throttle spring that acts against the built in return spring. I think I'll call Holley and find out if I can get a lighter spring (doubtful).
I was also able to get rid of the pump noise by suspending the pump from a spring rather than use the provided clamps to rigidly secure it to the car. I may change this to a rubber exhaust hanger.
Spent about 30 minutes on the freeway with it today. Cruising performance is great. Very little throttle gets a big response.
One thing that none of the video's show is the noise the injectors themselves make. You don't notice it when driving but at stops it's very pronounced. I even tried using the orig air cleaner housing rather than the open element but the clicking remains and seems to travel through the metal of the car. Maybe those with louder exhaust systems or headers wont hear it but with my bone-stock exhaust, it comes right through.
Still waiting for the salt and grit to get off the roads so I can really drive it.


Scott
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 42 years. It was my folks car before that (second owners). VTCI # 12013.

User avatar
sseebart
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:45 am
Location: Northern California
Contact:

Re: Fuel Injection!

Post by sseebart » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:48 pm

RedBird64 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:30 pm
One thing that none of the video's show is the noise the injectors themselves make. You don't notice it when driving but at stops it's very pronounced.
So, the radio's broken? ;-)

Actually, this is a big downside for me. It's nice when modern upgrades work unobtrusively. Still, I think we both agree the noise is not a deal-breaker. Loved the solution for quieting the pump.

While I have my motor out, I may take the opportunity to install the bung for the O2 sensor. Do you know the part number/supplier for yours?

~Steve

Post Reply