The Disk Brake Diary.....Thread covering Disk swap on a '63

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edpol
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:26 pm

Post by edpol »

Cupro-nickel brake line is now being sold here in some auto supply stores, around $25 for a 25' roll.
Windstars had some recall issues, some for problems that arose over 10 years later. Mine is a '98 bought in 1/2010. It had one recall the year I bought it for a possible fire hazard, another a year later for a rear axle rust problem. In the past, when 100,000 miles was a milestone, these problems would have been chalked up to age. I was shocked to learn my 13 year old vehicle was still covered. Other than the recalls, it has been quite reliable. I haven't had to do any repairs other than routine maintenance.
There are millions still on the road, many are the original owners, many with over 300,000 miles, so I wouldn't call it a lemon.
edpol
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:26 pm

Post by edpol »

I know he was making a statement about the Kia, I was making a statement about the Windstar. Just thought I'd help you out with that.
Treozen
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:26 pm
Location: Auburn, WA

Post by Treozen »

Booster data updated in booster section, 1st page.
Current Classic Garage (or money pits):
1957 Chevy Belair
1963 Thunderbird
1978 Corvette
1979 Ford F250

Prior Money Pits:
1976 Camaro
1983 Jaguar XJ6 (converted)
1966 Cadillac
edpol
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:26 pm

Post by edpol »

Nice update. Let us know how it works with the prop valve you're using.
novanutcase
Posts: 1814
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:58 am

Post by novanutcase »

Edpol,

While I understand that budget contraints play a part in your decision, Bdastrk makes the same point that I had made to you earlier. Even at 40 miles an hour our cars will take much longer to stop than a modern car of today. The reason I did the conversion I did the way I did it was because I don't trust ANYTHING that you have to use an adapter for especially brakes. Many would say that they are fine and they probably are but I still don't like them. Yes the technology was 40+ years old but at the time I didn't really have an alternative that would work that I knew of other than the higher end brake companies and none of them made a bolt on kit for my year 'Bird. The only truly bolt on kit was the '65 - '67 KH DB's so I went with what was the best available at the time.

John
Professional Pic Whore

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edpol
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:26 pm

Post by edpol »

As I said in my post, it came down to doing the '65-'66 conversion. I could easily use 2003-2011 Crown Vic rotors and calipers, but I don't like any of the wheel choices I'd be stuck with.
The biggest problem was finding rotors with hubs. Autozone sells them by special order. Next problem is finding KH calipers with SS pistons. I'll probably go with '67 MC.
As for the metrics, I was really surprised at how well they worked. I know the guy had problems to iron out, but he did work them out. And they stopped the car as well as my Windstar. until then I didn't know the specs of the Riv's and Toronado's were so close the specs of our cars.
On the other hand, I'm not all that comfortable with a two piece caliper bracket. I'm also a little leery about using spindle adapters and caliper spacers, but that's JMHO.
Finding that 4wd Ranger/Explorer rotors fit our hubs, I drew up a template for a 1 piece bracket. Before going any further, I researched the metrics, and found a lot of tweaking was in order. a little more research led me to the D52's The D52 calipers as used by MP brakes would be much easier to work with, but it's necessary to modify the spindle to use 14" wheels. So I figured I'd buy new '63 spindles, in case I had to go back, they're cheap as hell. But I found '65 spindles for $50. After comparing prices, it wouldn't be that much more to use that conversion, and it's a lot less work. It would be the way to go if for some reason I couldn't use 14" wheels. On with more testing.
If I did modify the spindle, then I'd go with Crown Vic calipers. Much easier to make a bracket, still a Ford product, more modern. Either way, GM or Ford, all my 14" wheels didn't fit. I'd have to hunt around for ones that do. Too much hassle.
So I resigned myself to the fact that I'd have to go with 15" wheels. If I had to go with bigger wheels, I may as well use bigger rotors, using more modern technology, and they're more compatible with our 11" rear brakes.
The Crown Vic rotors fit over the hub, AND the use of Ford calipers is possible. Add an MC with a 1" or greater bore, and all that's left is to fine tune the metering.
That system will work without too much effort. If one of the 11 1/2" '70's Ford boosters will fit under the hood, all the better. but like I said, the wheel options don't fit my resto plans.
Other than being notorious for sticking, KH made good calipers. It's just that they almost caused me to crash my '66 Lincoln. After I rebuilt with SS pistons, the problems disappeared, and I was able to sell the car with peace of mind.
As for the stopping power of our cars compared to newer ones, there are a number of factors to consider. The stopping power of our cars with properly tuned disc brakes of any kind, doesn't cause me too much concern.
bigbrownpilot
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:33 pm

Post by bigbrownpilot »

Just to add to the confusion about the Auto City Classic disc brake kit:
I got an entirely different proportioning valve bracket than the type in the box-o-parts sent to Allan (Treozen). This one was designed to attach to the RH stud on the booster and mount backwards- rear port in front. It places the proportioning valve under the master cylinder, and the steel lines then criss-crossed to the respective ports. I thought that was stupid, so I modified it to allow me to mount the bracket off the LH booster stud with the rear brake inlet facing aft as God intended. I was able to bend the lines and get it all connected. Of course, there is little room between the rear brake line fitting and the booster to add brass couplings and adapters, so I used the 9/16" x 18 fitting in the kit and a 3/8" fitting to make a 6" long 90-degree brake line. I was able to bend all the existing lines enough to re-use them, so the factory front brake lines go to the two front ports on the PV. I took the rear line and moved it to the far LH side of the firewall and bent it so it is horizontal behind the hood hinge, and attached the rear brake residual pressure valve. That left me with about a 2" gap between my new 90- degree line from the aft port of the PV to the residual valve. I was able to find a towed trailer brake tee with one 3/16" male inverted flare fitting and two 3/16" female IF fittings at NAPA to hook it all together with the brake pressure switch and adapter in one of the female ports and the 3/16" fitting from the new 90 I made in the other. My pictures are bad, but here they are. Hope to do calipers and rotors later this week.

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bigbrownpilot
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:33 pm

Post by bigbrownpilot »

More info: Of course, ACC sent me the calipers that required cutting off the bump on the back side to fit in the bracket. WTF? Why can't they figure this out? Other than that, my experience has been basically the same as Allan's (Treozen) with the entire installation. But a few additional points-- the shock tower mount for the crossbrace between the cowl and shock tower overlaps the master cylinder cover to the point where you can't get the cover off. Did some major surgery to the mount-- yes, I will still be able to use the stock cross brace, but there is a lot less meat around the first hole.

Went to pressure-bleed the brakes today using the Motive Products kit, and could not get it to hold pressure, So I tried a Mityvac on the rears with some success, but found out why I couldn't pressurize the master cylinder-- huge leak out the left front caliper banjo hose fitting. Will have to try new bolts and copper washers to see if I can solve that problem.

If I had it to do over again, I would only buy the basic kit with the new caliper brackets, calipers, rotors, and hoses. Even then, I might be tempted to but everything "a la carte" and get the correct calipers so I didn't have to cut the bump off. I would definitely go with the SSBC 9" booster kit and associated adapters fro the front and rear threaded rods, also use the stock bracket assembly with enlarging the lower holes to get it to fit the SSBC booster, get a master cylinder that doesn't interfere with the cross brace and shock tower mount, and choose my own proportioning valve, mounting bracket, and lines from Speedway Motors. Also, it is easy enough to make lines using Allan's recommendation. I chose to make maximum use of my existing lines, but flared and bent my own line to connect the rear of the proportioning valve to a tee for the brake pressure switch and the rear brake residual pressure valve.

Here's some pictures from yesterday's hardware install. Today's attempt at bleeding was an epic FAIL, but I think the problem was the leaking banjo fitting on the LF caliper.

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Treozen
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:26 pm
Location: Auburn, WA

Post by Treozen »

Nice - it?s amazing how different things are from kit to kit - for example, I can get my M/C cap off without interference from the shock tower brace mount - yes the front most metal clip needs to be tweaked every time I take it off, but otherwise, no issues. That said, neither of my dust caps fit - AT ALL, I see yours do.

I wonder if they changed some of the things based on the lengthy email I sent them, too bad they didn?t fix what really needed fixin?!
Current Classic Garage (or money pits):
1957 Chevy Belair
1963 Thunderbird
1978 Corvette
1979 Ford F250

Prior Money Pits:
1976 Camaro
1983 Jaguar XJ6 (converted)
1966 Cadillac
bigbrownpilot
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:33 pm

Post by bigbrownpilot »

Treozen wrote: I wonder if they changed some of the things based on the lengthy email I sent them, too bad they didn?t fix what really needed fixin?!
I wondered the same thing when I saw the different design for the proportioning valve bracket. They included two really bad B&W pictures that I will try to scan and forward-- one showed the mount they sent you and the other was the new style mount.

The way they had it may have worked OK and solved the problems you mentioned about Assembly Option 1. I really felt that I could use the factory lines with mine and so decided to hook it up with the rear port facing the booster. I wish I had taken better pictures of the mount before I installed it. I will try again when I get home and post them if they show the bracket better. Suffice it to say, anyone installing the proportioning valve is going to have to pay close attention to where and how the mount it to get everything to connect and fit in the tight area between the cross-brace, shock tower, hood hinge, and booster. The 3/16" 90-degree with a 9/16"-18 inverted flare fitting into the prop valve and a 3/8" inverted flare fitting connecting to the brass tee fitting with the pressure switch was my solution. Then the tee fitting connects directly to the master cylinder side 10# residual brake pressure valve, and the factory rear brake line connects to the "out" side of that. But you are right that it's more a box 'o parts than a true kit. Again, I would buy my own booster, master, prop valve and bracket if I were doing this over again and just use their basic kit. It would be nice if they would send some calipers that didn't need to be cut and ground, though!

Dave
Mr-Mach1
Posts: 358
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:23 am

Post by Mr-Mach1 »

So what do you guys recommend for a booster and master ? My booster may be shot as engine vacuum applies the brakes. My plan was 4 wheel disc brakes. I bought a basic kit with brackets, spacers, hoses and bearings. What is the caliper upgrade from the low drag caliper?

Leon
edpol
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:26 pm

Post by edpol »

It depends on how much you want to spend. You could keep the low drags and use a gm step bore master, or go with several choices of replacements. Our cars have nearly the same specs as a mid '80's ElDorado with a diesel engine, which uses low drag metrics.
As for the booster, the consensus seems to be at least a 9". FWIW, a '67 Tbird booster, 8 3/4" dual diaphragm, is reasonably priced. But I have to agree with others who say the best choice is hydroboost.
Speedway, Summit, and others sell non low drag metrics with 2 3/4" pistons for about $100/pr.
Wilwood has a few options. They have metrics for .81" or 1" thick rotors for about $100 each. They also have they're own D154 calipers, which are direct bolt on replacements. They're dual piston and also available for .81" and 1" thick rotors. They're about $165 each, or kits are available that include both front calipers, pins and pads for about $375.
edpol
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:26 pm

Post by edpol »

The MP conversion uses the big GM calipers, which is what I prefer to use over the metrics. The following applies to '63 and '64 Tbirds that use SET 3 outer bearings, the outer bearings on '61 and '62 are SET 2 if I'm not mistaken.
I was going to just use '65-'66 Tbird parts, but the hubs have been real hard to come by. The alternative is to replace the SET 6 inner bearings in the '63 hub with SET 13's, but the ID on those are .0025 larger than the SET 5 bearings for the '65-66 Tbirds. It's not much, but I'd rather not take the chance. Besides, the center of the hub is too narrow for disc brake wheels.
Another option is to use rotors for a full size late '60's - early '70's Mopar rotors. They're too long for the '63 Tbird spindles, but it's easy enough to cut the discs off, then grind the hub diameter so another rotor fits over them, late '90's Ranger rotors are 11.33" in diameter, 2003-11 Crown Victoria rotors are 12". The outer bearing needs to be replaced with SET 34, which has the same OD and ID as SET 3, same OD as SET 2.
The option I chose, is to use 1970 Galaxie rotors, and GM D52 calipers. '70 Galaxies call for SET 13 and SET 2 bearings. These can be replaced with SET 6 and SET 34 bearings. These are 11.72" in diameter. The hubs are about 1/4" shorter than the '63 hubs, but I'll be able to put a 1/4" spacer over the outer bearing, welded to the washer.
I'm making the caliper mounts myself, which seems to be a good chunk of the kit prices. The estimated cost for the discs, washers, steel for the brackets, grade 8 hardware, braided hoses, new, not rebuilt calipers, bearings, dust caps, splash shields, nuts and retainers, new brake lines, and prop valve is about $500.
With hydroboost, I believe this system will be a substantial improvement over metrics and a vacuum booster, without the need for excessive tweaking
Mr-Mach1
Posts: 358
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:23 am

Post by Mr-Mach1 »

It's not about going cheap. It's about not spending money I don't have to. There's still lots of other primary areas I need to drop cash on. Is there a step bore master that'll fit on a stock booster or a step master/booster combo that fits our car? I read threads on the hydro boost conversion while I agree it's the best way to go it's a lot of work I don't have time for right now. I might give it a go this winter but for now I want to get the car on the road before it's too cold to drop the top. My plan was if the factory brakes work, leave them be and upgrade to four wheel brakes after the season.
edpol
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:26 pm

Post by edpol »

Some guys used a GM booster, with some minor mods, I would assume you could do the same. Booster and MC for an '85 Eldorado is $226 at Autozone, including the $7 core charge.
If the Eldo MC fits your existing booster, it may just need a length adjustment.
Keep in mind, Oz went to hydroboost because he was only getting 14" of vacuum after installing a performance cam.
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