Newbies T'Bird and CO2

This area is for posting questions/information concerning 1961-63 year Thunderbirds NO FOR SALE POSTINGS

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Teeron
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:31 pm
Location: Victoria BC

Newbies T'Bird and CO2

Post by Teeron »

I?d decided to buy something from the fifties or sixties to use more or less as a daily driver. I had a '46 Buick for a while, but it was challenged on the highway. I still miss it though. I?ve got the practical side covered with modern stuff, but wanted something that was bit more engaging to drive. I've been the exotic route before, and I didn't want the expense and complications that Porsche, Mercedes and Jaguar bring.

I liked the idea of a C2 Corvette, but they are way too expensive, and it sort of came down to something like a C3, a 60s Mustang, or a Thunderbird. I?d been watching an add on CL for a ?63 Thunderbird for a while, and when the price dropped significantly, I contacted the owner.
He gave some sensible answers, and seem liked the sort of guy I?d like to be buying from, but it did all seem a bit too good to be true.

Description said no rust, a couple of small blemishes, good paint, good interior, but a couple of cracks on the armrests. About 15k on a rebuilt motor, transmission just overhauled, rebuilt carb, new fuel pump, exhaust, alternator, regulator, belts and hoses, brake work, and new rear shocks.

The half day trip on the ferry seemed like it was worth the risk, and I set off ready to be disappointed. The car was actually better than described. How many times have you heard of that?

It fired on the first hit from cold, and ran on the second attempt. It had just been through the local emissions test and the figures were amazing. I?ll cover that later. It all went a bit downhill from there though, as after a short drive, and an attempt to restart, the battery gave out. A new battery fixed that somewhat, but the starting still seemed a bit hit and miss, and although it ran smoothly the idle was way too high. There was a ticking noise that I thought may have been a manifold leak, but when I looked closer I could see the No5 plug was loose. That would probably have signaled a big issue on most of the aluminum head cars that I'm used to, but this just torqued up, no problem.

All the ignition components look pretty new, and with a rebuilt carb, and the great emissions figures I was sure I could get the starting sorted. After a bit of fretting on my part over the noisy and jerky power steering, caused by a very slack belt and miss-aligned pulleys we made a deal and it was mine.

The drive home was pretty uneventful, except for a monumental backfire on the ferry when I tried to start it. There was lots of smoke from under the hood. That was bit worrying, and seemed to get the ferry staff?s attention, but I cranked it again and it soon caught.

Overall the car is basically sound, and just what I wanted as a driver. The obvious deficiencies are:
The car has been repainted at some time, but it still looks good from 10 feet. Chrome and trim is all good. The A/C is long gone, as are the vacuum door locks. The heater is now controlled by an aftermarket inline valve. The clock doesn?t work. The temp and fuel gauges pulse, so I guess that means a new regulator. The alternator looks new, but I don?t think it is original T?bird. The regulator looks correct though. The charge light sometimes flashes when the battery is fully charged, but stays off as soon as there is any kind of load. The washer bag leaks, and the washer pump is not hooked up. Some of the wring is scary, with the odd Scotchlock, and a few wire nuts. There is a manual choke bodged in, but it seems to work. The passenger?s window is a bit slow, and both rear quarters are frozen. The front right brake makes a slight rubbing noise, and the parking brake won?t hold. There is the odd groan and rattle, and the shocks seem a bit slack. The back springs are low too. They are all things that I?ll either live with, or fix gradually.

With the help of the forum, the power steering belt tension fix was quick and easy. The ?? spacer was missing, and with a new one installed, it all bolted up and worked as intended.

I though I?d begin trouble shooting the starting issue by hooking up a dwell meter, as it quick and easy to do. At first, I thought my meter had failed, as I haven?t used it for years, and it was reading 40 degrees. A quick look inside showed it was telling the truth, the points were barely opening. I was surprised the car ran at all. A quick clean and re-set and the starting is transformed, and I was able to wind the idle speed back to a very smooth 500 or so rpm. The car is a pleasure to drive now, and I've not had a moment of buyer?s remorse.

Just for interest, here are the emissions figures. I think they are amazing for a 50 year old car without a cat, or any emissions gear. The first set is for idle readings. The second set is for the driving test.

They also calculated an overall fuel consumption figure of 13.8 litres per 100 kilometers (around 14 mpg), and that was only just above the average.
They also did a calculation based on the distance driven, and because it hadn?t traveled many miles it rated ?best? for CO2 tonnes per year. So, if you?re getting a hard time for owning a polluting gas guzzler, you can point out the facts.

I had trouble formatting the table, I hope you can make sense of it. The first value on each line is the Maximum allowed. The second is what the car was measured at. The last value is the average value of all the cars that passed. Every car over 5 years old is tested, so the majority will be modern injected, cat equipped. The T'bird is average or better, especially at idle, except for the NOx, and then still not too shabby!

Idle

MAX Actual (Average passing reading)
HC 873 - 64 - 226
CO 4.09 - .87 - 2.09

Driving
HC 335.00 - 122.00 - 110
CO 3.49 - 1.1 - 1.1
NOx 3415 - 1565 - 979


Here are some photos of the car, and a couple of my other project that I?ve been wasting my spare time on for the last four years. Sorry about the focus on the instrument panel, can't ever seem to get that right. Frame is modified S10, engine is 4.2 Jag, with twin 2" SUs.
Jag 4 speed o/d gearbox. Body handmade by me. I did everything in my garage, with hand tools, except a few hours professional welding on the frame.

The pics are flattering, but the car does look good. It is not that dark a blue though, the under hood picture color is closer to the truth.

It gets lots of attention, but you'll know that about Thunderbirds already.


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I?d welcome suggestions about any of the issues the car has, especially replacing or refurbishing the armrests. Also, what do members suggest for shock replacements, and what about rear springs, replace or refurbish?
Ron
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Wklink
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:48 pm
Location: Olympia Washington

Post by Wklink »

Good looking car. Someone has put some work into her.

Couple of things stand out.

The interior looks good but the seat covers are definately not stock. Having said that, those are really, really cool and I don't normally say that about non original stuff in these cars. I really like them.

The AC compressor and bracket are gone, probably taken off when the engine was rebuild and not put back on. You can find them usually on e-bay or craigslist. The air cleaner is not 'correct' for a 63, they didn't chrome them as well as the cooland reservour or top fan guard. No big deal, a lot of people chrome them but it would be dinged in dudging. The intake manifold shoudl be black as well.

If you are really interested in bringing her back to original condition I recommend the 61-63 Factory Specification manual that you can buy from the site. William Wonder also makes a good book that describes the cars fairly well and is a good reference for the restorer. Welcome to the club, these cars are a lot of fun to drive and attract attention.

The armrests will be more difficult, you have two options. You can have them custom redone or you can buy new door panels. The 63 armrests are integrated so there is not simple replacement. You can get a good replacement but you will have to dye it yourself to get the color right.
Thomas Cofield
1962 Hardtop, 'Thumper' Red/Black
1962 Hardtop, 'The Survivor' White/Red
VTCI-PNW
RSSVTCI
Teeron
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:31 pm
Location: Victoria BC

Post by Teeron »

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I did wonder about the seats, they've obviously seen some use, so they were done a while back. They get lots of positive comments.

Yes, the armrests are going to be a problem. Can you suggest a supplier?

The chrome engine stuff would not be my choice, but it'll do for now. The whole engine is painted gold, including the sump. I'm assuming it was some kind of reconditioned unit. I haven't checked the engine number yet.

The PO gave me the WW book, and it looks like useful information. I just want to make it a safe and reliable driver though, and I won't be showing it or anything like that. I'll just use it and enjoy it, and maybe visit the odd cruise night. Victoria is tolerable without A/C.

Yes the PO spent a lot of money on it, and has taken a big haircut. I felt it was a lot of car for the money, but that seems to be the local market at the moment.
Ron
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Nick Pepe
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:58 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado

63 bird

Post by Nick Pepe »

Hi Teeron, you have a very nice car. The other one looks like an airplane with an airplane cockpit. Very cool. You can purchase stock shocks from Thunderbird Headquarters. Extra heavy duty shocks work well on 63 Thunderbirds in my experiences. There are many other Thunderbird dealers that you can go to also. I worked with Thunderbird Headquarters for almost 25 years and I feel they are the best. Replace your rear leaf springs with new springs, DO NOT REARCH THEM. Rearching is a scam and it wont last, besides, its the same labor charge to replace them so why not get new springs. Dont forget to order all the spring bushings too, front hangar springs, shackle springs and spring pads. Try AB Spring, I used them for 20+ years and they are very high quality. I used to have a 58-66 Thunderbird restoration shop in Los Angeles for 30 years so I have some experience with this.

The 63 has molded arm rests into the door panel, they are not removable like 61-62. You could have them shaved off and install a pair of good used 61-62 arm rests, they are the same shape and length as your 63, just removable. Or, you could purchase new door panels and be done with it since they come with the arm rest. Then you just need to redye them.

Good luck, Nick
1966 Thunderbird
1960 Dodge Phoenix
1970 Dodge Challenger
1972 Thunderbird
1972 Mustang Mach 1
Bill in Al
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:04 pm
Location: Pell City Alabama

Post by Bill in Al »

Hows about some info on that shiny speedster? I like the '63.
First car?;1947 Crosley 2door
Teeron
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:31 pm
Location: Victoria BC

Post by Teeron »

Hi Nick,

That all sounds like good advice. From the odd thunk and rattle I'm pretty sure some bushing are needed. New spring make sense. When your wife comments on how low the back looks, it is probably time to do something.

And for Bill, I could go on for days, but didn't put much in as it is a Thunderbird forum.

The body is polished aluminum sheet over an EMT and square tube frame. It is all single curvature, and made much as you would make a hard chine boat. The radiator surround is Mk5 Jaguar, and the cowl is Mg TD. The lamps are P100s, and in the center is a Notek fog. I learned to fly on British planes of the 40s and 50s and I loved the instrument panels, so that is what I tried to replicate. So far 90% of the instruments are hooked up, and they'll soon all work. I've always wanted a 30s roadster, but as I'm not Jay Leno I had to build it myself. The Thunderbird turns head, but this has actually stopped traffic.
Ron
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Jay
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 1:19 am

Post by Jay »

Hi Ron,

I think you got yourself a great deal with that 63 T-Bird and I agree that as a daily driver there is no point in struggling to bring it back to show specs...and I also think that interior looks cool!

As for your creation...wow! I can certainly see how you would stop traffic with that one! I think I can find you a Norden bomb sight if you want to add one.

One of the Mustangs below is mine (the slower one) and so is the 62 Sports Roadster...

Image

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Jay Murray
Gilbert, Arizona

1962 Sports Roadster 2Y89Z151598
2013 Mustang Boss 302 (SBY)
1984 380SL
1989 Harley - heavily customized, several times...
http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdatash ... mber=24861
Teeron
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:31 pm
Location: Victoria BC

Post by Teeron »

Hi Jay,

Nice pics. Yes, I'm just going to use and enjoy the Tbird, and originality is not going to be an issue.

It seems pretty reliable, but I still need to take a few rattles out of it.

I love the way it drives, and overall it was a great bang for the buck. As for running cost, the pleasure more than off sets the pain at the pump.

In a former life I had the chance to get some seat time in a Mk14 Spitfire, the one with the big Griffon engine and five blade prop. Mustangs were supposed to be nicer. I never had the chance to find out.

Maybe I can see your Sports Roadster next time I'm in Scottsdale.
Ron
Bill in Al
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:04 pm
Location: Pell City Alabama

Post by Bill in Al »

Thanks guys,you just never know what Thunderbird owners might be into! Wife and I joined about eighty other Model A Fords last Saturday running around the Talladega Al Superspeedway. Not nearly the speeds you two are used to though!
First car?;1947 Crosley 2door
User avatar
Jay
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 1:19 am

Post by Jay »

Ron,

Let me know when you're in town. I'm also a member at the Commemorative Air Force wing in Mesa (second largest in the country, I believe)...which is how I got the Mustang on the ramp for that photo...

J
Jay Murray
Gilbert, Arizona

1962 Sports Roadster 2Y89Z151598
2013 Mustang Boss 302 (SBY)
1984 380SL
1989 Harley - heavily customized, several times...
http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdatash ... mber=24861
novanutcase
Posts: 1814
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:58 am

Post by novanutcase »

Car looks good!

John
Professional Pic Whore

Image
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ozbird
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:45 am
Location: Australia

Post by ozbird »

Very nice.

I can see what you mean about the belt alignment on the power steering pump and crank pulley, it was like mine.

When the PO removed the air-con the bracket went with it and the spacers I would imagine? You will need to get the power steering bracket spaced out with new spacers or like me, a heap of washers until it lines up. When I get around to it I will replace the washers.

Graeme
1962 Hardtop - in Melbourne, Australia
Teeron
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:31 pm
Location: Victoria BC

Post by Teeron »

Hi Graeme,

Yes, the power steering is fixed now. I made up a spacer, but it could have been done with a pile of washers. The PO had a technical background, and was a racer, so I assumed that it couldn't have been something as simple as that. I've found a few other things that were just as simple to fix. I'm just about to look into the brakes, and see what horrors lurk there.

I've stripped out the scary wiring, most of which was not fused, and found the odd hot bare end, just tucked behind carpet.

A closer look at the timing showed it was retarded a couple of degrees, and fixing that along with new points plugs and wires has improved the starting from good to perfect.

Overall I'm enjoying it. It has some get up and go when needed, and the handling is better than I expected. I think it is a good car now, and it must have seemed like a magic carpet when it was new.
Ron
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