Blueish White smoke on startup.

[UncleOtis63]

Hello all. As some may have read my previous post, it is easy to discern that I am a novice to the classic car biz. That disclaimed, I have another potentially silly question. Who knows? Maybe others may need the answers too.

So I just bought this cosmetically immaculate 63 t-bird. I'm thrilled to own and drive it but not savvy on the signs it gives me that it may need maintenance. My Explorers tell me to "Check Engine" (for what that is worth LOL). When I start it, it blows a variable puff of white smoke out of the tail pipe. Some times it is barely noticeable, sometimes there are no mosquitoes in my neighborhood for days following ignition. I understand that it is the rings that are worn and the engine will need to be rebuilt. I am saving the money for this repair but want to save a couple thousand more so I can get the engine compartment detailed and repainted while the engine is taking it's sabbatical. If I keep the oil topped off regularly, would it be a problem to drive it with the rings in disrepair? I hate to park it until I can get it fixed. That may be until next spring. But I also hate to ruin the engine that rolled out of the factory with the car 40 yrs ago. Will the bad rings ruin my cylinder walls even though I'm keeping the oil level full?


Thanks in advance.

[Alan H. Tast]

It may be that just the valve stem seals are bad. When they get old, they get hard and lose their ability to seal. This allows a small amount of oil to get into the combustion chamber, which in turn gets burned up and goes out the tailpipe in a blue-gray cloud of smoke. If the smoking doesn't show up after warming up the engine, this is what I'd suspect. If the smoking continues as bad as when you start up, then I'd suspect rings. Performing a compression test will also help to diagnose this, but I won't get into the details on the various things you can do to narrow down rings, worn valves, etc.

Replacing the seals could be done with the engine and heads left in the car. It does involve removing the rocker arm assembly, suporting the valves by raising each cylinder's piston to top dead center (TDC) and/or supplying air pressure or stuffing the bore through the spark plug hole with rope/twine to keep the valve from dropping into the cylinder. Then, the valve springs are compressed, keepers and spring removed. The seal can then be pulled off and a new one installed, then reversing the procedure to secure the valve. Then, on to the next set...but if you're considering redoing the heads anyway, it can be done at that time.

You should be able to drive the car until it goes in for rebuild, just keep plenty of oil with you. I functioned this way for well over three years on a 130,000-mile '63 until I had it redone, hence the car's former nickname of "Fogger."

[UncleOtis63]

I assume the valve stem seals are on the heads by your description. If I got the heads rebuilt, could that take care of this problem? That would certainly be cheaper than rebuilding the engine. On average, how much is it to have heads rebuilt. Maybe the engine doesn't need to be rebuilt after all. I rolled 79000 this weekend and that is supposed to be original. By the condition of the car, it is believable. There is an oil change reminder in the door jam that indicates it had 70,000 in 1981 which coincides with the story that the car was in dry storage for 19 years (since '84) and only 9000 miles since then. How many miles should the 390 typically run before the rings wear? Would a compression test eliminate worn rings? That is as easy as threading a compression gauge in the Spark Plug hole and turning the engine over correct? I think I read that it has a 10:1 compression? Forgive my ignorance. This car is 12 years older than I and I know little about the mechanics of a car engine.

[mike harmon]

To answer your questions in the order posed: Valve stem seals are in the heads, rebuilding the heads will take care of this problem. Oil @ startup and none thereafter is 99% of time stem seals/worm stems & guides.

Cost? Varies with the amount of work needed and the "grade" of the work. Good shops will surface the heads, magnaflux (check for cracks) them, replace all valves with new stainless or hardened steel valves (for ujnleaded gas), bore out the valve guides (requires oversize valve stems), resurface the valve seats, and cc (check and correct) the volume of the combustion chambers (keeps compression ratios and compression pressures more or less uniform between cylinders. Lesser shops do lesser work.

Condition of rings- 19 years of storage probably lead to the hardening of the valve seals, and may have also lead to the formation of rust in the cylinders, if desicant (dryer) spark plug substitutes weren't installed (used in aircraft engines if stored over a couple of months) or if rust inhibitor wasn't sprayed into the cylinders. The rust may be virtually invisible to the naked eye, but it's enough to knock the finish off of rings and the cylinder walls.

Number of miles of life of rings etc- pretty much dependant upon care recieved- frequent oil changes, not running short trips, full warm ups or not, not overloading or overspeeding engine- with really good care over the life of a car of the early 60's (19 years storage pretty much eliminates this catagory), an engine could be expected to last about 90-100,000 miles before rebuild. Engines of that era tended to use more oil than today's- a qt per 1000 miles was pretty good (I grew up in that period).

Compression checks- most cars are done with a cold dry (no oil in cyl's) engine- Ford in their manual specifies doing the check with a warm engine. This check is of the compression (upper 2) rings, and has nothing to do with the oil control rings. Blue smoke while running or on acceration is usually oil rings (compression rings may also be gone), blue haze/smoke out of the oil filler cap or road draft tube is "blow-by", and is from worn compression rings. My '62 has both worn compression and oil control rings- while the oil rings can control the visible smoke, they can't control the consumption- a qt per 250 miles.

Rebuilding heads while waiting on the rest of the engine- often not worth the effort of pulling the heads. A lot has to come off of the engine, and those heads are large and very heavy. Just getting the exhaust manifolds off is a bitch, and the exhaust manifolds should be resurfaced before putting them back on. Long story short, I'd live with a little smoke on start up. Rebuilding the heads will result in well-sealing valves, which will raise the compression and combustion pressures, which could blow out the rings if they are at all weak. For budgeting purposes, I have gotten some detailed estimates from primo custom engine rebuilders (these guys do racing engines for just about everything as well as daily drivers)- a first quality rebuild using new pistons, valves, valve springs, bearings, about 1/2 of the rockers replaced, new tubular valve pushrods (lighter weight), roller timing chain, valve lifters, stainless valves and new hardened seats, hot-tanked parts (hot solvent cleaned), new camshaft, reground crank including enlarging oil passages, balancing all rotating parts, magnafluxing the heads, crank and rods, new wrist pin bushings, removal and installation of engine into car- $3,500 max, plus any replacement of accessories such as starter, water pump, etc. About $800-900 of this is the R&R of the engine from the car. This includes a good quality paint job of the engine block, heads, pan, accessories etc, but not the valve covers- most people have preferred to do that themselves. Hope all of this helps!

[UncleOtis63]

You guys are amazing. I hope this isn't a deviation of the normal characters and response times that this forum typically produces. I am thrilled to own this great find. My Corinthian White on Chestnut 63 is an honor to drive. I want to drive it daily but I hate to put many miles on it. It has been so well preserved.

I guess I will plan on contributing to the mosquito patrol for a while; at least until I'm ready to pull the power plant. I called a fairly respectable engine remanufacture in town recently and was quoted around $1,100 for a rebuild if I pull and deliver. He sounded like it was a top to bottom kind of deal but now you're making me leery with your estimate of $3,500. I don't think it included paint but I can't imagine there being that much of a difference. I guess I'll just do my research before I take it in.

There is a local High School that said they would be honored to paint it. I'm skeptical about having a team of adolescence poking and prodding at my car but they are only going to charge materials and for the sake of instruction, I think they do it right (pulling chrome and bumpers, ect...). I'm still thinking about that one.

Thanks for all your input.

[mike harmon]

I think I forgot to mention it, but I had actually gotten 2 firm estimates for the rebuild- same work, and almost identical prices. The 2nd place also would R&R the engine, as well as paint it (no charge for the painting, you're right in that it doesn't cost or take much other than some detail in masking bolts or putting them in after the painting is done. The paint is authentic Ford colors, in a good quality spray can available from most catalogue suppliers). The 1st had to have the engine delivered to them, but the cost of R&R was about the same at several places. Incidentally, when you go to a rebuilder, look at the shop. These two good places could qualify as a surgeon's operating theatre. Steel topped tables and benches, absolutely clean floors and benches, absolutely no junk anywhere, tools all laid out or hung up neatly. These two places work on one block at a time until it is done, when it comes to the assembly time, which takes a full day, sometimes two. In each place, there is only one assembler, who actually is in clean clothes (the race engine builder actually was in a white smock!) and wears gloves. I watched both for a couple of minutes each- the selling point of both places was 1. absolutley well organiized and clean and 2. both assemblers used torque wrenches on every nut and bolt in the engine... and not the pre-set kind, but the type that you must read the needle on a scale. Both also have their wrenches checked for calibration twice a year! These guys are good, but their prices are not much more than Bubba or Jethro in a filthy, cluttered garage. With the R&R I wanted to be absolutley sure that the correct nuts and bolts get back into the correct places- the shop I decided upon not only does this, but if the mechanic feels something isn't quite right, he will repair it or put in the correct parts- no extra charge! Unfortunately, my holdup is the recent discovery that our house needs a new roof from rafters up- about $6,000- so the $4,000 that I had set aside for the engine and engine compartment re-do is going to the roof before winter rains set in....... as to the paint and bodywork by a high school shop class, be careful there. The quality is totally dependant upon the skill and attention of the teacher. I've seen some totally excellent work, and some real crap come out of vocational classes. Ask to see an example, and really grill the teacher as to how much supervision he applies, and a guarentee of quality work. If it sounds OK, go for it, but insist on top-of-the-line paints such as PPG or DuPont, and insist on hammer-and-dolly body work, not 5 pounds of Bondo. Insist on trim removal and rubber seal removal instead of just masking over... use the opportunity to replace all of the trunk and door seals. If they don't have a shop manual covering the removal of the chrome and trim, buy one, copy it for them. Some of the trim such as the strip along the top of the fenders is difficult to get off without damaging it, and the removal of the tail lamp buckets is a mystery without instruction. At that level of skill, stay away from clear-coat paints, just stick with conventional stuff. Even the computer-applied factory clear coats are prone to faults, much less manually applied coats. When you get to the point of restoration/rehabilitation, take lots of care and time- it will be worth it in the end!

[robbar1]

Hi Alan,

I am a new member so hopefully I am following the right protocol.

I have a 62 conv w/AC. I also get a puff of smoke at startup which I attribute to valve seals. However, the next smoke issue doesnt seem as clear-cut to me. After the small startup smoke, there will be no smoke for quite a while. Then after the car has been running a while and warms up, I occasionally notice smoke comes out of the left tail pipe when I am at a stop light. Funny thing is that during the same trip the smoke is not constant.... sometimes I get smoke, sometimes there is none at all.

I do get blow-by from the oil filler cap when car is warm. By "warm" I mean the temp gauge reads 3/4 of the way as a normal reading. I understand from various posts that higher reading is normal.

Any insight into the smoke issue?

It may be that just the valve stem seals are bad. When they get old, they get hard and lose their ability to seal. This allows a small amount of oil to get into the combustion chamber, which in turn gets burned up and goes out the tailpipe in a blue-gray cloud of smoke. If the smoking doesn't show up after warming up the engine, this is what I'd suspect. If the smoking continues as bad as when you start up, then I'd suspect rings. Performing a compression test will also help to diagnose this, but I won't get into the details on the various things you can do to narrow down rings, worn valves, etc.

Replacing the seals could be done with the engine and heads left in the car. It does involve removing the rocker arm assembly, suporting the valves by raising each cylinder's piston to top dead center (TDC) and/or supplying air pressure or stuffing the bore through the spark plug hole with rope/twine to keep the valve from dropping into the cylinder. Then, the valve springs are compressed, keepers and spring removed. The seal can then be pulled off and a new one installed, then reversing the procedure to secure the valve. Then, on to the next set...but if you're considering redoing the heads anyway, it can be done at that time.

You should be able to drive the car until it goes in for rebuild, just keep plenty of oil with you. I functioned this way for well over three years on a 130,000-mile '63 until I had it redone, hence the car's former nickname of "Fogger."

[ZephyrMEC]

Lighter colored smoke at start-up could also be due to a leaking vacuum modulator on the transmission, allowing a bit of trans fluid to be drawn into the engine. Keep an eye on the trans fluid as well. Running low on trans fluid can cause premature failure of numerous parts due to heat. You can drive a mosquito fogger a long time, keep up on the oil level and save for your rebuild. When the rings and guides are totally shot, the heavy oil consumption will start to foul plugs, then you can no longer put off the work.

[Jay]

Mike,

Wow...tough choice! A new roof on the house or an engine rebuild.

But when you really think about it, how wet could you actually get? I mean, a couple of extra blankets and a shower cap and you are really cruisin'!

Jay

[mike harmon]

Well, the tale of the roof vs. new engine gets worse! First off, the roofing estimates came in at around $10K instead of the hoped-for $6K- thereby seemingly pushing the engine rehab further out. Then, the jet stream has stationed itself over the pacific northwest most of the winter, leaving southern Calif. dry- no rain! Instead of foolishly saving/worrying about failing roofs, I coulda' shoulda' had the engine done- maybe I should just do it, then it'll rain, the roof will leak and blow off, the neighbors will call Code Enforcement to abate an unsightly nuisance, and the forest fire danger rating will lower...

[robbar1]

Hi Folks,

Something of great interest! It turns out that the reason for my smoke was not worn rings or valves, but clogged oil drain holes on the left head. I had a rebuilder look at the (low mileage) engine and say "I think the engine is quite fine, Have you checked to see if the oil drain holes are clogged?"

My brother and pulled off the valve covers to view the top of the engine. Sure enough, the oil drain holes were clogged... all else fine. Took care of the clog issue, and now NO MORE SMOKE!! Sometines simple things are the problem. Thought I would share that with the other folks on the board.... check out the oil drain holes before thinking about more serious repairs!

Cheers,
Rob t

Hi Alan,

I am a new member so hopefully I am following the right protocol.

I have a 62 conv w/AC. I also get a puff of smoke at startup which I attribute to valve seals. However, the next smoke issue doesnt seem as clear-cut to me. After the small startup smoke, there will be no smoke for quite a while. Then after the car has been running a while and warms up, I occasionally notice smoke comes out of the left tail pipe when I am at a stop light. Funny thing is that during the same trip the smoke is not constant.... sometimes I get smoke, sometimes there is none at all.

I do get blow-by from the oil filler cap when car is warm. By "warm" I mean the temp gauge reads 3/4 of the way as a normal reading. I understand from various posts that higher reading is normal.

Any insight into the smoke issue?

It may be that just the valve stem seals are bad. When they get old, they get hard and lose their ability to seal. This allows a small amount of oil to get into the combustion chamber, which in turn gets burned up and goes out the tailpipe in a blue-gray cloud of smoke. If the smoking doesn't show up after warming up the engine, this is what I'd suspect. If the smoking continues as bad as when you start up, then I'd suspect rings. Performing a compression test will also help to diagnose this, but I won't get into the details on the various things you can do to narrow down rings, worn valves, etc.

Replacing the seals could be done with the engine and heads left in the car. It does involve removing the rocker arm assembly, suporting the valves by raising each cylinder's piston to top dead center (TDC) and/or supplying air pressure or stuffing the bore through the spark plug hole with rope/twine to keep the valve from dropping into the cylinder. Then, the valve springs are compressed, keepers and spring removed. The seal can then be pulled off and a new one installed, then reversing the procedure to secure the valve. Then, on to the next set...but if you're considering redoing the heads anyway, it can be done at that time.

You should be able to drive the car until it goes in for rebuild, just keep plenty of oil with you. I functioned this way for well over three years on a 130,000-mile '63 until I had it redone, hence the car's former nickname of "Fogger."

[mike harmon]

That's great that the smoking problem was so easily solved- but it brings up another question- is anything else partially plugged with sludge? I've never seen the inner workings of a 390, but I've read that in posts that the 390 can be prone to plugging of oil galleries in the vicinity of the rear main bearing or maybe the other main bearings- which can lead to bearing failure and damaged cranks. If this so, the rebuild scenario may be something to keep in mind.