Just so you can bring home a trophy

wisconsinjimmy · Post by **wisconsinjimmy** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:23 pm

When a person has to go through so much trouble just so the car can be "original" then I think some rules need to be changed. First off the original battery from Ford more than likely took a crap before the year was out and in went an aftermarket, what is so wrong with not having the original battery which everyone knows is not original. I would think that going from a single master cyl to a dual system would be allowed for the pure safety factor. Of all the members do they all trailer the car to the shows if yes than let the rules stand but if you drive it somethings need to be changed. I am putting a dual system in my 62 which is a stock car but I want it to stop and E brake is not an option they are what they are a parking brake. The dual system does not alter the car and if anyone can remember single cyl and had a line blow whew hang on it is going to get rough. I would rather be enjoying life rather then a prissy wondering when some safety item is going to fail. I will leave this in your mind, take the car out and at 30 mph stomp on the emergency brake and try to control the car. If the pavement is wet or sandy the rear end is going to pass you up.
Be Safe for you and the person in the other car.
JimG
Cushing, WI

KKC · Post by **KKC** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:40 pm

AMEN Jim!

Couldn't agree with you more! Safety should be #1!

If you drive it, then there are definitly upgrades that need to be made! A dual master cylinder is definitly a priority!

There should be a "Concours Safety" division in judging, dedicated to those who don't own trailer queens. (No offense intended, its just a term related to those who only trailer their babies.)

JMHO

Alan H. Tast · Post by **Alan H. Tast** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:31 pm

I really don't want to come off as being harsh with this response (and please forgive me if I do), but have either of you actually taken the time to read and understand what's in VTCI's Concours Rules? Have either of you taken the time to understand the requirements of the various Divisions (Modified, Drivers, Touring, Primary) and what each of these Divisions allow for modifications? If you haven't, please take the time to do this, then post your comments.

Those of us who have been paying/sustaining members of VTCI and have invested years' worth of effort in developing VTCI's Concours program have seen the evolution of judging standards and rules go from a 4-page booklet in the 1970s to the very comprehensive set of documents (Concours Rules and Original Factory Specifications) currently being used. Allowances for items that reflect usage of improved technologies like disc brakes and dual master cylinders, radial tires, heavy-duty sway bars, etc., are clearly defined in the Concours Rules. People have choices as to the level of evaluation for their car, and likewise also have choices as to how high of a level of authenticity they wish to strive for.

A person who wishes to have a car that is a spot-on restoration that reflects how it left the assembly plant when new is taking on a very challenging (and potentially expensive) course of action. A person who wants the overall looks of an original but modern reliability of various components, or wants to use replacement parts that aren't per original specifications, can go down that path and still do well in VTCI-judged competition, but they must understand Rules and the differences between Acceptable Replacement and As Original, as well as the how the process of modification point deductions and its limitations work.

The goal of maintaining and preserving factory-original condition has been a hallmark of clubs like VTCI and other marque-related groups since their inception. In fact, it wasn't until the mid-late 1980s that a Drivers Division was introduced in order to let people make modifications under the hood and not worry about the condition of the underside of their car or inside their trunk. Touring's introduction in the mid-late 1990s, along with Modified Divisions, further expanded on this in order to allow for the deviation from original. Allowance for use of modern devices that improve safety, reliability and convenience/comfort is taken into account by provision of those Divisions that place less of an emphasis on factory-correct condition. It's also because of the growing trend towards modification that VTCI has programs like the Authenticity and Preservation Awards in order to call attention to and recognize those who seek to "buck the trend" and retain the as-delivered condition.

wisconsinjimmy · Post by **wisconsinjimmy** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:10 pm

Alan settle down friend, I do not have the manual and I am a paying member but am new to you, I apologize if I stepped off on the wrong foot or stepped on. I stand corrected sir.
JimG

Alan H. Tast · Post by **Alan H. Tast** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:35 pm

Jim, over the nearly 30 years that I have been involved in the T-bird hobby (I purchased my '63 in the spring of 1981 and began my affiliation with VTCA/VTCI two years later), one of my biggest frustrations has been the lack of knowledge by those who have opinions about VTCI's judging program but yet have not ever been a member of VTCI, read a copy of the Concours Rules/Original Factory Specifications, or participated in a VTCI-sanctioned judged event as either an entrant or a judge.

For me its second-nature because I've been so involved with the process over the decades, and I know that "newbies" often times can be overwhelmed with the depth of information that is available to sift through. Like with any endeavor, a knowledge curve is present from the time a person is introduced to something to the time they've become involved and experienced in it.

There is a page on VTCI's website that has information on Concours judging divisions - though written by the previous Concours Director, it is a succinct primer on how we have structured our judging classes:

http://vintagethunderbirdclub.org/judging_classes.htm

I suggest that those who have questions regarding judged Divisions review this page first, obtain the most-current copy of the Concours Rules, and pose questions in the Forum. The information is out there - you just need to access and review it.

wisconsinjimmy · Post by **wisconsinjimmy** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:48 pm

I have ordered the manuals for the bird hopefully I will remember to disengage a**hole before putting mouth in gear.

KKC · Post by **KKC** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:53 pm

I too stand corrected. Sorry.

TsNStangs · Post by **TsNStangs** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:03 pm

Having been on both sides of this debate, I don't think anyone needs to feel badly OR right or wrong here.
Different opinions and tastes are what makes this hobby interesting for different people and personalities and helps keep it fresh and evolving.

First off, there is no end to the respect that should be given to anyone who has taken the time to keep/put their car into the same kind of condition it was in when it rolled off the assembly line over 4 decades ago. Those cars are not only an incredible investment of time and money, but they're also invaluable centres of info and reference for other hobbyists AND something akin to museum pieces of art.
Conversely, many of us also love driving these cars, and it is only logical and intelligent to want to make them as safe as possible for ourselves and those we love that may be transported in them. I will make very clear that I'm no expert here on judging or VTCI's classes, but if we also like to keep/make our cars look good while driving them, and would also like to show and compete with them, it does seems a bit unfair to get "dinged" for having equipment that allows us to be safe when we're out enjoying them, in the traditional judged classes, or put into "Modified" since it doesn't seem like a fair or correct class for a car that is bone-stock but for brake upgrades, radial tires, or shoulder belts, etc. If this has been completely addressed, please fill us in here, Alan (as I know you've had extensive input on a lot of this), and I've had people ask me questions along this line on a couple of different occasions.
In fact, being that my car kind of falls into this category (and will much moreso in the future), I had folks running the first (local chapter VTCI-sanctioned) show I entered my car in a couple of years ago not have a clue about what class to put me with. They wanted me with the wide-tired, loud exhaust "Modified" group, even though I believe I had registered for "Drivers"!

P.S. For those of you not familiar with him, as his signature states, Alan Tast is the Technical Director and a past President of VTCI, and the author of "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years", two of the foremost "bibles" for our cars. This obviously paints a picture of his interest in the hobby, and his involvement, long years of contribution and...passion...are no doubt the reason his response may have come across a bit gruff.

KKC · Post by **KKC** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:53 pm

No offense taken by me in Alan's response.

I respect everything he said.

I also agree with you TsNStangs.

The first car show I went to, another T-Bird owner asked to see under my hood and went ballistic on me for not having the correct carb and alt. pulleys. He treated me as if I was a criminal or something. I can understand his belief that a car should be original, but to attack me for it not being original, is just as offensive to me. I know this was an isolated incident, but it happened just 4 days after purchasing the car.

I just want a safe driver that I can take to a show and not be harassed. I think I should be able to open my hood without someone bashing me for it not being 100% original.

wisconsinjimmy · Post by **wisconsinjimmy** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:09 pm

Well I can say this that this rat I am going to start driving with earnest is missing the passanger seat back rest it is a soft black damn guy gave me the wrong paint. I am going to use JD Blitz Black which is a dead flat black, car does not deserve to shine in its parade dress wave to every body. Printed out the rules and now am waiting for the specs then I will turn the car over to my son who just adores the thing and I will go back to wood working and my poultry breeding.

kevindeluca66 · Post by **kevindeluca66** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:29 pm

Hey Jimmy this is not a reason to give up on a hobby if this is what you like to do.I think that all of us at one time or another have had people say things about our car that we dont like but if all of us gave up there would be no hobby left.When someone says negative things about the car just say ok and walk away and tell yourself that this is my car and I will do what I want with it. For example my parents have a 66 that they bought new and besides paint is stil mostly original and people have said "you should do this or that should be fixed " but we dont care because it is a family hierloom that is good enough and sometimes the money and/or time to do something is not there or worth it. My car is anther story ,I have things that are not stock and people have said you should get the original for that, but I dont care because I like some of the mods and cant afford to change some of the others.All in all dont give up if old cars are what you like, just go to some cruise nights that are not judged and enjoy yourself.

TsNStangs · Post by **TsNStangs** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:15 pm

Jimmy, I think that's exactly how it should be - it's your car, make it what you want!

kevindeluca66: I think that all of us at one time or another have had people say things about our car that we dont like but if all of us gave up there would be no hobby left.When someone says negative things about the car just say ok and walk away and tell yourself that this is my car and I will do what I want with it.

This is a little off-topic, but Kevin's post above reminded me of something that happened to me a couple of years ago. For those of you that don't know, I'm practically a life-long Mustang fan, having gotten my first in 1973, have had a dozen or so since, and was a founding member and Vice-President of a local classic Mustang club for over 2 years, Treasurer for 3 years...
I had my '70 Grabber (pictured below for reference sake to the story - quite obviously a '70) at a big local car show that I really like - I'm usually not a big fan of shows, and the sitting around for hours, etc., preferring to drive my cars - and this older guy walks up and says, "Nice '69".
I politely corrected him by saying, "Thanks...but it's actually a '70".
He then said something like, "I knew you were going to say that, but it's a '69".
I responded, "Well, those two years share the same basic bodystyle, but I can assure you this one's a '70."
He says, "Naw, I know my cars! You put some '70 stuff on here, but it's a '69", then starts walking around the car pointing to pieces he stated were just '70 parts slapped on to a '69 car!
My younger son - about 14 at the time, and extremely respectful, especially to older folks - was with me, and started looking at me like 'is this guy nuts???'.
I just stood there until the guy was finished, then said something like, "Well, thanks for your info!", and as soon as he sauntered over to the next aisle, my son and I fell all over each other cracking up!
So - just a little something to illustrate that people can come up with crazy things about your car even outside of the normal/traditional/modified/concours concerns and debates!

VicRattlehead · Post by **VicRattlehead** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:14 pm

That's a nice '69 mustang!!

Lately the only trophy I want is a Wally. I don't care much for car shows anymore, I'd rather spend the time at the racetrack watching what cars were made to do, run. Not sit parked in a parking lot. The 2010 international is here in chicago and I will be going to support not only the vtci but also the Chicagoland club. But when NHRA released the schedual for the Unleashed events and I saw that they are having a race in Indy on the same weekend it really made me question what I was going to do. I really don't care what people think of the mods I've done to my car, I like it and that's what matters. IMO the drivers class is what I like. Concourse correct doesn't really matter to me I'd rather see something that's a little different something that shows the owners personal touch. That's what I like to see. But that's just my opinion.

novanutcase · Post by **novanutcase** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:36 pm

That's a nice '69 mustang!!

I really don't care what people think of the mods I've done to my car, I like it and that's what matters. IMO the drivers class is what I like. Concourse correct doesn't really matter to me I'd rather see something that's a little different something that shows the owners personal touch. That's what I like to see. But that's just my opinion.

+1

John

KYBRIGGS82 · Post by **KYBRIGGS82** » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:26 pm

Here's my two cents worth regarding purists, wanting every nut and bolt to be original to ground up restoration to be judge at a premier car show verses a daily driver, modified and suited to their needs or mental desires.
All men want the perfect wife, beautiful, rich and to be judged by the famous as the absolute best of show but most of us accept our wonderful wives for who they are.. Daily friends who over the years have been modified to accept our faults and still care about our mental and physical desires. My wife is not a trailer queen, shown at the country club on Saturday nights with diamonds dripping from her neck but she is often taken out and has been treated the best I can afford during the last 24 years of our marriage.
So be it by golly... I hope after she reads this post I get that 57 Lincoln Mark ll for Fathers Day !!!,