Good evening. I am just starting a restoration of my great-uncles 1964 thunderbird. It has 44k miles on it and he bought it new in 1964. He parked it in probably the 1980s where it sits today. I have no clue what is wrong with it - or if anything at all is wrong with it. I’m a total rookie and as a 24 year old I don’t know the first thing about restoration, as the oldest vehicle I’ve worked on is my 2005 GMC Canyon.
I need help. To the point that I can’t even get the hood open. If anybody on here can walk me through how to get the hood open, what to look for as far as potential repair costs/etc I would GREATLY appreciate it. I’m trying to surprise my great-uncle by being able to drive it to church one day, so I’m hoping to atleast get it running and driving a few miles won’t be too expensive, but I know that entirely depends on engine seizure, etc.
If anyone here can help, or knows who can, I’d gladly send my phone number somehow to you for a phone call to walk through the basics.
Please help - Rookie Restoration
Moderator: redstangbob
Re: Please help - Rookie Restoration
First, there is the reason it was parked. It might have been something simple like a dead battery, or something really bad like a blown engine. Since this is your great uncle's car, he is an excellent source of information on this that a lot of people trying to resurrect a car from decades of storage do not have.
Second, there is a long list of things that 'rot' over time, and some things rot worse when the car is never run.
The battery -- if there is one will be dead
The tires, if they aren't flat are useless
The coolant hoses are suspect
The belts are rotten
The coolant is full of rust
The brake fluid is full of water
The gasoline is varnish
The points are rusty
So the list of things you *must* do is everything above including whatever was wrong with it back in the 1980s. This is the absolute *minimum* so if this list intimidates you, stop now.
Third, do not break anything else that is not already broken. This is a 44,000 mile car, so it could be in pretty nice condition, and also close to original, so pay respect to what is there and be gentle with it.
You must be careful when attempting to get it running again to avoid breaking anything that is not broken.
Over the decades, even a small leak can drain all the fluid out. Make sure it has oil, transmission fluid, and axle fluid.
Rust will form in the cylinders and you can break piston rings if you try to crank the engine without dealing with that issue. Once you get the hood open, remove all the spark plugs get some oil in there. An ounce or two of something like Marvel Mystery Oil along with a little penetrating oil like PB Blast. Put it in there and let it soak.
While that is soaking, go back to the fuel tank and remove the drain plug and drain out the old gas. You may need to flush it out with a few gallons of fresh gas. If the old gas isn't liquid anymore, you will need to remove the tank. Radiator shops can "boil out" the gas tank, or you can just buy a new tank. The old gas will bend you push rods if you successfully get the engine running, and 40 year old gas is far too old to even think about burning. Get rid of it. After you've flushed out the tank, replace the plug and put about 5 fresh gallons in there.
If the engine oil does not look clear, go ahead and change the oil and filter. Do not use synthetic oil, just regular 10-W30. Some people like the Rotella oil for diesel engines because it has more zinc in it, but you will change this oil again after you get it running a bit, so it doesn't matter too much.
Now that the engine has oil in it, pull off the distributor cap and mark the position of the rotor relative to the housing, and the vaccum canister relative to the engine. Use a grease pencil or something. Plan on changing the points, cap, and rotor. Once you have it marked the position of the distributor and the rotor, pull out the distributor. Down in that hole where the distributor was is the oil pump driveshaft. You should rig up a way to spin that shaft clockwise using a drill to pre-lube the engine. I've got a drill extension that takes a 1/4" hex socket that fits on the driveshaft, but there are many ways to do this.
Remove the air cleaner and take a good look at the carburetor. Get a big can of Gumout and clean it up a bit. Leave the air cleaner off until you get it running, but put something over the throttle to prevent things from falling into the engine.
Inspect the fuel line for any leaks. Look at all the wiring you can see and make sure all the insulation is intact, particularly the starter and battery cables.
Make sure it has coolant in it. You may want to leave the cap off until you get it running. If it doesn't have coolant, put some in and see if it starts leaking out somewhere.
Replace the alternator belt, you can replace the power steering belt too now, or wait for later.
After the cylinders have soaked for days, you can attempt to spin the engine. With a large socket and a breaker bar on the front of the crank pulley, turn the engine over in the clockwise direction. If it binds, you can rock it back and forth to try and work through a sticky spot. With the plugs out, the effort to turn the engine will be heavy, but steady. Be patient, add some oil to the cylinders if needed. You may want to put rags over the exhaust manifolds to prevent too much oil from leaking on them. Once you can turn the engine all the way over by hand, it is time to turn it with the starter.
Use the drill to prime the oil pump. Install the distributor noting the position of the vacuum advance and the position of the rotor. Install new points, rotor, and distributor cap. Move the spark plug wires from the old cap to the new cap one by one being careful to keep them in the same position. Use dielectric grease on the plug wire conductors.
Put in a new battery. You may want to also have a battery charger. Use the starter to crank of the engine a few times. This will push the oil out of the spark plug holes, so have the rags there to catch it. After you've cranked the engine a bit, check so see if you have coolant or gasoline leaking out anywhere. Those leaks will need to be fixed before starting the engine.
Wipe up the oil mess and remove the rags. Install new spark plugs and put on the wires.
Make sure you have a fire blanket and an extinguisher handy. Put a little gas, not more than a couple tablespoons into the carburetor and crank it over to see if it starts. If you can, keep it running. Add coolant as the air works it's way out. Shut it off it oil or coolant starts leaking out. Make sure the choke opens when it gets warm. Shut it off.
Mark the crank pulley for initial timing of 18-20 degrees before TDC, loosen the distributor bolt a little bit set up the timing light and restart. Set the timing by adjusting the distributor. Alternatively you can adjust timing by ear, or maximum idle vacuum.
Next, flush out all the brake fluid by removing the cap on the reservoir, and starting with the passenger side rear, open the bleeder and pump the brakes while adding new fluid at the reservoir until the fluid coming out of the bleeder looks new. Then go to driver's side rear, then passenger side front, then driver's side front. Do not let the reservoir run out of fluid. While you are there, inspect the springs shoes and drums. If this was parked in the 80's they will be filled with asbestos dust, so wear a respirator. In the rear look for evidence of the rear axle leaking fluid.
Check the radiator and heater hoses for elasticity. They should not be hard, and if they look dry rotted, then replace them. Flush out all the coolant and replace with 50/50 mixture of antifreeze and water.
Check all the fluids. Grease the undercarriage. Check the tie rods and ball joints for slack.
If you found anything broken along the way, I assumed you fixed that when you found it. Take the wheels and get new tires mounted.
Now you are ready to have it move under it's own power. Check if the brakes work. Check the brake lights. Look for any new leaks. Take it up to 35 MPH and see if it shifts from 1st to 2nd to 3rd.
Second, there is a long list of things that 'rot' over time, and some things rot worse when the car is never run.
The battery -- if there is one will be dead
The tires, if they aren't flat are useless
The coolant hoses are suspect
The belts are rotten
The coolant is full of rust
The brake fluid is full of water
The gasoline is varnish
The points are rusty
So the list of things you *must* do is everything above including whatever was wrong with it back in the 1980s. This is the absolute *minimum* so if this list intimidates you, stop now.
Third, do not break anything else that is not already broken. This is a 44,000 mile car, so it could be in pretty nice condition, and also close to original, so pay respect to what is there and be gentle with it.
You must be careful when attempting to get it running again to avoid breaking anything that is not broken.
Over the decades, even a small leak can drain all the fluid out. Make sure it has oil, transmission fluid, and axle fluid.
Rust will form in the cylinders and you can break piston rings if you try to crank the engine without dealing with that issue. Once you get the hood open, remove all the spark plugs get some oil in there. An ounce or two of something like Marvel Mystery Oil along with a little penetrating oil like PB Blast. Put it in there and let it soak.
While that is soaking, go back to the fuel tank and remove the drain plug and drain out the old gas. You may need to flush it out with a few gallons of fresh gas. If the old gas isn't liquid anymore, you will need to remove the tank. Radiator shops can "boil out" the gas tank, or you can just buy a new tank. The old gas will bend you push rods if you successfully get the engine running, and 40 year old gas is far too old to even think about burning. Get rid of it. After you've flushed out the tank, replace the plug and put about 5 fresh gallons in there.
If the engine oil does not look clear, go ahead and change the oil and filter. Do not use synthetic oil, just regular 10-W30. Some people like the Rotella oil for diesel engines because it has more zinc in it, but you will change this oil again after you get it running a bit, so it doesn't matter too much.
Now that the engine has oil in it, pull off the distributor cap and mark the position of the rotor relative to the housing, and the vaccum canister relative to the engine. Use a grease pencil or something. Plan on changing the points, cap, and rotor. Once you have it marked the position of the distributor and the rotor, pull out the distributor. Down in that hole where the distributor was is the oil pump driveshaft. You should rig up a way to spin that shaft clockwise using a drill to pre-lube the engine. I've got a drill extension that takes a 1/4" hex socket that fits on the driveshaft, but there are many ways to do this.
Remove the air cleaner and take a good look at the carburetor. Get a big can of Gumout and clean it up a bit. Leave the air cleaner off until you get it running, but put something over the throttle to prevent things from falling into the engine.
Inspect the fuel line for any leaks. Look at all the wiring you can see and make sure all the insulation is intact, particularly the starter and battery cables.
Make sure it has coolant in it. You may want to leave the cap off until you get it running. If it doesn't have coolant, put some in and see if it starts leaking out somewhere.
Replace the alternator belt, you can replace the power steering belt too now, or wait for later.
After the cylinders have soaked for days, you can attempt to spin the engine. With a large socket and a breaker bar on the front of the crank pulley, turn the engine over in the clockwise direction. If it binds, you can rock it back and forth to try and work through a sticky spot. With the plugs out, the effort to turn the engine will be heavy, but steady. Be patient, add some oil to the cylinders if needed. You may want to put rags over the exhaust manifolds to prevent too much oil from leaking on them. Once you can turn the engine all the way over by hand, it is time to turn it with the starter.
Use the drill to prime the oil pump. Install the distributor noting the position of the vacuum advance and the position of the rotor. Install new points, rotor, and distributor cap. Move the spark plug wires from the old cap to the new cap one by one being careful to keep them in the same position. Use dielectric grease on the plug wire conductors.
Put in a new battery. You may want to also have a battery charger. Use the starter to crank of the engine a few times. This will push the oil out of the spark plug holes, so have the rags there to catch it. After you've cranked the engine a bit, check so see if you have coolant or gasoline leaking out anywhere. Those leaks will need to be fixed before starting the engine.
Wipe up the oil mess and remove the rags. Install new spark plugs and put on the wires.
Make sure you have a fire blanket and an extinguisher handy. Put a little gas, not more than a couple tablespoons into the carburetor and crank it over to see if it starts. If you can, keep it running. Add coolant as the air works it's way out. Shut it off it oil or coolant starts leaking out. Make sure the choke opens when it gets warm. Shut it off.
Mark the crank pulley for initial timing of 18-20 degrees before TDC, loosen the distributor bolt a little bit set up the timing light and restart. Set the timing by adjusting the distributor. Alternatively you can adjust timing by ear, or maximum idle vacuum.
Next, flush out all the brake fluid by removing the cap on the reservoir, and starting with the passenger side rear, open the bleeder and pump the brakes while adding new fluid at the reservoir until the fluid coming out of the bleeder looks new. Then go to driver's side rear, then passenger side front, then driver's side front. Do not let the reservoir run out of fluid. While you are there, inspect the springs shoes and drums. If this was parked in the 80's they will be filled with asbestos dust, so wear a respirator. In the rear look for evidence of the rear axle leaking fluid.
Check the radiator and heater hoses for elasticity. They should not be hard, and if they look dry rotted, then replace them. Flush out all the coolant and replace with 50/50 mixture of antifreeze and water.
Check all the fluids. Grease the undercarriage. Check the tie rods and ball joints for slack.
If you found anything broken along the way, I assumed you fixed that when you found it. Take the wheels and get new tires mounted.
Now you are ready to have it move under it's own power. Check if the brakes work. Check the brake lights. Look for any new leaks. Take it up to 35 MPH and see if it shifts from 1st to 2nd to 3rd.
1966 Thunderbird Convertible (Emberglo / White-Emberglo)
Modified 428 - stroked, rollercam, aluminum top end, headers
Livermore, CA
Modified 428 - stroked, rollercam, aluminum top end, headers
Livermore, CA
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HayterBird
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:51 pm
Re: Please help - Rookie Restoration
That’s exactly what I’m looking for, thank you! It ran when he parked it in the 1980s, he was busy with work and kids at the time and lived an hour away from where it was parked so he just didn’t drive it any more. There’s an old Lincoln there too, but this Thunderbird was his baby so it’s gonna be what I focus on first.
Re: Please help - Rookie Restoration
You have got some great advice already...
However, I want to be a little voice of reason! Where was the car parked? Was it outside on grass/dirt? If so, do yourself a favor and slide under the car. Take a really good look! Wear safety glasses and have a flat head screw driver. Poke, jab and bang... It will be obvious! Cars that are parked outside on grass and dirt can sometimes rot from the bottom up. Everything you see while standing next to it looks good, but get underneath and there is almost nothing left.
Of course, EVERYTHING can be fixed... but there is a point where it just doesn't make financial sense. For us old buggers who are looking for a project its sometimes not a problem. But for a young feller looking to just get it back on the road and surprise his uncle, it might just be wasted money.
I'm not trying to be negative, but the first rule of rebuilding is to ensure you have a decent base to start with. What one person thinks is a good base, may not be for another person! Funds and budget dictate everything.
P.S. since you are newby and may not know! A simple blown up motor (pretty common) can easily run $2500-4000 to rebuild. A transmission is about $2500. So take it slow and assess things to make sure you aren't throwing good money after bad!
However, I want to be a little voice of reason! Where was the car parked? Was it outside on grass/dirt? If so, do yourself a favor and slide under the car. Take a really good look! Wear safety glasses and have a flat head screw driver. Poke, jab and bang... It will be obvious! Cars that are parked outside on grass and dirt can sometimes rot from the bottom up. Everything you see while standing next to it looks good, but get underneath and there is almost nothing left.
Of course, EVERYTHING can be fixed... but there is a point where it just doesn't make financial sense. For us old buggers who are looking for a project its sometimes not a problem. But for a young feller looking to just get it back on the road and surprise his uncle, it might just be wasted money.
I'm not trying to be negative, but the first rule of rebuilding is to ensure you have a decent base to start with. What one person thinks is a good base, may not be for another person! Funds and budget dictate everything.
P.S. since you are newby and may not know! A simple blown up motor (pretty common) can easily run $2500-4000 to rebuild. A transmission is about $2500. So take it slow and assess things to make sure you aren't throwing good money after bad!
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HayterBird
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:51 pm
Re: Please help - Rookie Restoration
It was parked under a carport on a lime/chat/dirt floor. If I can get under it (it is very low) I’ll try and inspect its undercarriage, but I believe it will be in good shape.
How in the world do I pop the hood on this though? I’ve read on here that it’s in the grill somewhere, but can’t find it anywhere and only locate the latch that you push after it’s “up” a little bit. Can anybody tell me exactly where it is in the grill or does anyone have pictures?
How in the world do I pop the hood on this though? I’ve read on here that it’s in the grill somewhere, but can’t find it anywhere and only locate the latch that you push after it’s “up” a little bit. Can anybody tell me exactly where it is in the grill or does anyone have pictures?
Re: Please help - Rookie Restoration
If it is sitting on dirt, hopefully it is in a fairly dry environment. If it is in a wet place, the soil holds moisture and normal day/night temperature cycles cause condensation on the metal which leads to rust. Rust is by far the most expensive and difficult thing to "fix".
Hopefully you can drag it out of where it is and put it on a solid floor where you can put it up on sturdy jack stands. This car weighs more than 5000 lbs, and if it fell on you would ruin your whole day.
Hopefully you can drag it out of where it is and put it on a solid floor where you can put it up on sturdy jack stands. This car weighs more than 5000 lbs, and if it fell on you would ruin your whole day.
1966 Thunderbird Convertible (Emberglo / White-Emberglo)
Modified 428 - stroked, rollercam, aluminum top end, headers
Livermore, CA
Modified 428 - stroked, rollercam, aluminum top end, headers
Livermore, CA
Re: Please help - Rookie Restoration
The release is up under the front bumper, right in the center.HayterBird wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 11:38 pm It was parked under a carport on a lime/chat/dirt floor. If I can get under it (it is very low) I’ll try and inspect its undercarriage, but I believe it will be in good shape.
How in the world do I pop the hood on this though? I’ve read on here that it’s in the grill somewhere, but can’t find it anywhere and only locate the latch that you push after it’s “up” a little bit. Can anybody tell me exactly where it is in the grill or does anyone have pictures?
I'm a little worried what you will find. Mine was stored in a temperature controlled garage and it still rusted in places. For sure, all 4 of your brake cylinders will be seized and need replacing. Heat and penetrating oil... OVER AND OVER AND OVER.. or you will also be replacing the brake lines (which will probably need replacing anyway).
Re: Please help - Rookie Restoration
I would say the first thing you need to do with this car and any other classic car..
Get underneath the car and inspect from front to back to make sure that it is structurally sound enough to get on the road.
trunk pan and floor pans having holes is normal and can be replaced. You want to look around the suspension, frame rails, door sills, etc for any rust through.
carefully inspect the brake and fuel lines front to back for any kind of corrosion, breaks, holes, or obvious leaks.
Safety first!
Get underneath the car and inspect from front to back to make sure that it is structurally sound enough to get on the road.
trunk pan and floor pans having holes is normal and can be replaced. You want to look around the suspension, frame rails, door sills, etc for any rust through.
carefully inspect the brake and fuel lines front to back for any kind of corrosion, breaks, holes, or obvious leaks.
Safety first!
Re: Please help - Rookie Restoration
I am in the same boat. I have my grandmother's 64 Samoan Coral hardtop. Less than 70k miles, but got parked in my dad's garage in Austin in 1990. Though not climate controlled, it is Texas. I assumed it would rotate. I was wrong. Even after pulling the plugs and soaking in Marvel Mystery Oil for a week, no turn. So I pulled the valve covers and found powdered rust on the rocker assembly. I decided to pull the top end off but found the distributor frozen. From my research, that is a known problem with FE engines. I destroyed the distributor getting it out so decided a full rebuild is in order. The good (hopefull) thing is, the car was short blocked in about 1985 and given how much my grandmother and dad drove the car, I think the block has less than 5,000 miles on it.
I knew the brakes were bad and found the system dry. I will be replacing everything and considering a dual circuit system and maybe front discs. The power booster was toast.
I took a pause to make space to work on the bird and expect to get back at it soon. Plan is to replace eveything rubber on the car, refurbish the 390 and the brakes and make it mechanically new. I hope to be posting progress soon.
I knew the brakes were bad and found the system dry. I will be replacing everything and considering a dual circuit system and maybe front discs. The power booster was toast.
I took a pause to make space to work on the bird and expect to get back at it soon. Plan is to replace eveything rubber on the car, refurbish the 390 and the brakes and make it mechanically new. I hope to be posting progress soon.
Re: Please help - Rookie Restoration
Nice, I will be sure to watch for your posts as it sounds like you and I are in a very similar situation. I pulled my engine 2 weeks ago and determined the block was shot. I'm now on my second block and taking it to the machine shop today. Sigh, I'm quite shocked at how much it costs for FE parts. Just an example but you can buy an Edlebrock performance kit (heads, intake, cam, lifters, springs, timing set) for a Chev motor, $3200.. For the FE its $5200 (Canadian prices).5Miata10 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 12:18 am I am in the same boat. I have my grandmother's 64 Samoan Coral hardtop. Less than 70k miles, but got parked in my dad's garage in Austin in 1990. Though not climate controlled, it is Texas. I assumed it would rotate. I was wrong. Even after pulling the plugs and soaking in Marvel Mystery Oil for a week, no turn. So I pulled the valve covers and found powdered rust on the rocker assembly. I decided to pull the top end off but found the distributor frozen. From my research, that is a known problem with FE engines. I destroyed the distributor getting it out so decided a full rebuild is in order. The good (hopefull) thing is, the car was short blocked in about 1985 and given how much my grandmother and dad drove the car, I think the block has less than 5,000 miles on it.
I knew the brakes were bad and found the system dry. I will be replacing everything and considering a dual circuit system and maybe front discs. The power booster was toast.
I took a pause to make space to work on the bird and expect to get back at it soon. Plan is to replace eveything rubber on the car, refurbish the 390 and the brakes and make it mechanically new. I hope to be posting progress soon.
Anyway.. Good luck! I will post pictures as I go. Hopefully you do the same and maybe we can learn from each other and not repeat mistakes!
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Alan H. Tast
- Posts: 4252
- Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:52 pm
- Location: Omaha, NE
Re: Please help - Rookie Restoration
There's an off-handed explanation for what 'FE' stands for - the second word is 'Expensive' (you can use several words starting with 'F' to figure out what that means).
As you can probably figure out by now, you're not building a Tri-Five - '60s Chebbie or early-generation Mustang, so take that into account when budgeting.
Alan H. Tast, AIA
Technical Director/Past President,
Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l.
Author, "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years"
1963 Hardtop & 1963 Sports Roadster
Technical Director/Past President,
Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l.
Author, "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years"
1963 Hardtop & 1963 Sports Roadster