Top not going up

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Mike66
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:38 pm

Top not going up

Post by Mike66 » Thu May 17, 2018 11:33 am

I wanted to improve the speed of my 66 convertible top going up. I added ATF fluid to the container and operated the top a few times to bleed out. After 3rd time moving the top up and down (it wasnt any faster) the top now refuses to move at all and wont come up.

I hear the click of the relay and I tested the blue/white wire on the solonoid and it has 12,5 volt at idle when being operated. I wiggled the lever in park but nothing works. Does anyone know where to look for this? I first thought that the relay has been too warm so I waited a day but it wont move. The deck lid moves fine but the top motor isnt running.

When putting direct 12 volt from the battery to the red and yellow wire of the motor, the motor starts to move but cannot move much. It just makes a small turn and then stops.

jtschug
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Re: Top not going up

Post by jtschug » Thu May 17, 2018 12:52 pm

When you say top motor, do you mean the flipper lid?

Mike66
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:38 pm

Re: Top not going up

Post by Mike66 » Thu May 17, 2018 1:32 pm

The motor in the trunk where the hydrauic lines are attached to :)

Mike66
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:38 pm

Re: Top not going up

Post by Mike66 » Thu May 17, 2018 4:25 pm

Maybe I know what I did wrong.
When bleeding the top motor after refilling it, i didnt loose the filler plug. This was all tightened as the top was operated 3 times and on the 3rd time it just moves 1 inch up and then goes down again. The top always worked fine but it seems it didnt like the refill and bleeding process :(

jtschug
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:33 pm

Re: Top not going up

Post by jtschug » Thu May 17, 2018 6:00 pm

How did you “bleed” out the old fluid?

I think you are running out of fluid. When the cylinders are extended then there is more fluid in them and the reservoir can run out. Cycle the system at least twice to purge air out before putting the cap on. The filling procedure is tricky. Too much fluid and you will blow out the center seal of the pump (ask me how I know) and not enough and the top won’t cycle fully. I don’t even use the screw plug anymore, I use the rubber plug which allows some air venting.

jtschug
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:33 pm

Re: Top not going up

Post by jtschug » Thu May 17, 2018 6:16 pm

When I switched my system over to Dextron, I had it all apart and I was replacing the hoses at the same time. I took each cylinder out of the car and then extended and retracted it to squirt out the fluid into a bucket. The. I bench filled it with new fluid. In retrospect, I do not think ATF is the best choice. If I were to do it again I’d use aircraft hydraulic fluid, but I don’t think it is worth the hassle, and I don’t cycle the top much in cold weather where it would make a difference.

Joe Johnston
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Location: Sunny FLORIDA

Re: Top not going up

Post by Joe Johnston » Thu May 17, 2018 7:03 pm

I don't know if there is a "better" choice or not, but there is nothing wrong with ATF for a system like this. Just sayin...... Often we get obsessed with things that make insignificant differences, because we feel the need for the "best" for our cars. ATF is definitely better than brake fluid used in earlier systems as it doesn't absorb moisture, but that is as far as it goes. Brake fluid withstands higher pressures and higher temps, but absorbs moisture. As a light oil, ATF also does not compress, if so and just a little bit, would you notice it?? I'm sure you could find engineering data that supports higher temperatures, higher pressures and other better performance measurements, and better this or that. That said, this is a basic hydraulic system that just pushes and pulls 4 cylinders. Nothing high tech about that. Other issues may come into play are much more noticeable: as relays, switches, worn parts or air in the system - but it boils down to oil under pressure in a basic system. No matter what the oil is, its still oil under pressure that functions occasionally.
Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. J F K

55-57 VTCI Forum Moderator
57 Inca Gold-Colonial White
63SR Silver Mink

jtschug
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:33 pm

Re: Top not going up

Post by jtschug » Thu May 17, 2018 7:41 pm

Certainly there is nothing wrong with using ATF. I did, and while I might make a different choice if I were doing it today, I don’t feel strongly enough about it to change it. That said, I’m still fighting occasional gremlins. The other day the deck would not close with the top up. The motors were running, the valve was open, but no motion. I ran the system the other way, the top went down and the deck closed, then put the top up and everything worked fine. A few days later the system wouldn’t cycle the top down. Over rode the switch and opened the deck and extended the lid, then it worked again. I don’t know why it is so temperamental

Mike66
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:38 pm

Re: Top not going up

Post by Mike66 » Fri May 18, 2018 11:57 am

I am getting closer to the problem - the red wire on the motor doesnt get any voltage when pressing the top up on the switch. When presseing down, the yellow wire gets 12 vold perfectly and the deck lid closes.

I guess I need to trace the voltage and check where it goes wrong. I noted that the red wire is coming from the relay in the passanger side rear, closest to the 2 solenoids. It doesnt output any voltage. The solenoids white/blue gets 12volt OK wich probably explains why the top is making a slight "bump" trying to go up but stays down since the motor isnt powering up.

Is there a way to test the top control circuit breaker thats mounted on the right front inner fender if it works alright?

jtschug
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:33 pm

Re: Top not going up

Post by jtschug » Fri May 18, 2018 2:59 pm

To test the circuit breaker, check the two posts with a volt meter. They should both be around 12V.

If you aren't getting power to the pump, then you should check the relay.

Mike66
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:38 pm

Re: Top not going up

Post by Mike66 » Fri May 18, 2018 4:37 pm

Finally - I found the problem. It was the relay yes.

I took one from the other side and the top works perfect (not the deck cant close - I need new relays :))

Thanks alot :)
The top didnt go any faster though, even after refill. Its sloooooow unless i step on the gas and its not-as-slow but still very slow.

But I can live with that - as long as it at least just works :)

jtschug
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:33 pm

Re: Top not going up

Post by jtschug » Fri May 18, 2018 6:56 pm

The system draws 75 amps. Perhaps a new alternator would speed it up a bit. Also clean up grounds and clean the power feed (with the battery disconnected). Also our cars are supposed to have a high volume hydraulic pump. This wasn’t available as a service part for a long time and some got switched out with Mustang pumps. You can now get a new high volume pump. These will never be as fast as a modern top, but if it is slower than it should be, these should help.

Mike66
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:38 pm

Re: Top not going up

Post by Mike66 » Sat May 19, 2018 3:16 am

Thanks alot.l I will try it all :) I bought a 100 amp one-wire alternator and puttingthe foot on the gas seems to help some but still it takes forever to raise the top. I'll check connections and pump :)

Joe Johnston
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Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:34 pm
Location: Sunny FLORIDA

Re: Top not going up

Post by Joe Johnston » Sat May 19, 2018 9:02 am

Something else to try is to get a spool of 12 gauge wire and put alligator clips on each end. Attach one clip to the ground terminal of the battery, and the other to the ground terminal at the pump motor. This give you an excellent ground connection and if function improves, shows you have a weak ground. I also always connect a battery charger when playing with the top to assist the battery. The system is demanding.
Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. J F K

55-57 VTCI Forum Moderator
57 Inca Gold-Colonial White
63SR Silver Mink

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