Front end braking shudder

[hemicharger69]

Every once in a while, the front end shudders like crazy when I brake. Feels like it's coming from the front. Usually slowing down from 50mph or more, not from 40mph or under. Tires seem to be evenly worn.

I replaced brake shoes, bearings, wheel cylinders, passenger inner tie rod, but I have not yet turned the drums. I plan to take front drums to machine shop this week. I tightened up the steering gearbox so there's not a lot of steering wander. The car does not pull to the right of left when braking.. Does not pull to right or left when shuddering to a stop.

The passenger wheel seems looser than driver side when I grab the tire and rock left and right. The passenger side wiggles about 1/2"- 1" left and right with front jacked up. The passenger wheel is on tight enough. I cannot see excess play coming from inner or outer tie rod ends. I cannot see excess play from idler arms. maybe I'm just turning the steering column when I rock right to left and it's not excess play at all. I have not checked caster play or camber play.

What would fix this braking shudder? Anyone else experience this?

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

I had a similar issue with my front drum brakes. I discovered that my Idler Arm Bushing was loose, and is being replaced as I write this, to firm up that side.

For Shudder:

~ Drum turning my help alleviate as it may be out of round
~ Also, you may want to check you carrier plate nuts to ensure they are properly tightened down
~ Check the Idler Arm assembly and the bushing (though you are not having a pull to either side, so you may be ok)
~ Check the upper & lower control arms and ball joints to make sure they are firm.
~ One more thing you may want to check is if the shoes fit into the drums. I found that I had to grind the sides of the shoes to fit into the drums.

Just my 2 cents having just gone through this.

[Karl]

G'day,

I too did have a shudder when braking especially from 60 MPH and when going down a steep hill. I always put it down to the brakes, but now I think it was due to the wheel bearing.

My 63 hardtop had 62 or earlier spindles, hubs, springs and upper control arms on the car when I purchased it. I purchased from various "T" Bird supplier in the U.S. all the correct parts and brought the car back to original. What I found was that when I tighten up the wheel bearings the back of the grease seal rubbed on the backing plate and the wheel doesn't turn properly. Originally when I adjusted the wheel bearings up I just did it by hand and feel which meant that the bearings were not loaded up to the correct tension and allowed the wheels to wobble as there was no load on the bearings.
I thought that I may have incorrect parts supplied to me by the "T" Bird suppliers but I don't think this is the case. I also thought that the wheel grease seals were wrong but I think theses are correct as well.

Somehow the hubs are going onto the spindles too far. I have put this down to the bearings are not quite right? maybe!!.
I have solved the problem temporally by machining the back of the grease seal off, this allows for the hub to go onto the spindle and the bearings can then have the correct load on them. This stopped the wheels from shuddering.

Another way that I corrected the problem was to place some .025" shim behind the inner wheel bearing to pack the hub away from the backing plate to give the grease seal some clearance. This also stopped the shuddering.

Now I have also done a lot of extensive work on the brakes, maybe it is a combination of both but I put my shuddering down to the bearings not being loaded correctly. Try doing the front wheel bearings up as per the instructions in the manual, this will show you if the grease seal is binding or not.

Another problem is that originally when you replaced the drums you got a new hub that was riveted to the drum, these days when you get a new drum it is not machined to the hub, this too may create a shuddering problem as well because the hub is running eccentric to the axle.

Hope this is of help,
Karl.

[hemicharger69]

Thank you for these suggestions.

I will check the brake shoe fit. Last time I pulled the drum off, a pretty big pile of brake dust came out about 4"-5" diameter. I thought it was weird but I figured it was because brake shoes were new. This would suggest brake shoes sides are rubbing but it would also suggest the problem will eventually go away. It's been almost 2000 miles and still shuddering.

I will also check the seal clearance. Are you saying the seal is a little too wide with respect to the bearing? Are you saying to machine the seal on the inside rim the edge that is pressed in? Not the outside seal facing the backing plate, correct?

I will look at it and reply back.

Thanks!

[Karl]

G'day,
I don't think that all that brake dust is normal, something is not right there.

With regards to the grease seal it is the outside edge that is facing the backing plate that I cut of. Here is a photo of the one that I have.
Now I believe these to be correct however is somebody thinks that I have the wrong one I would be keen to know. I have purchased some here in Australia and from two separate suppliers in the U.S. and they are all the same for a 63. I believe that 61 and 62 are the same except smaller.

Before you cut anything off, just adjust the wheel bearing as per the manual. If the bearing is tightened to the specific tension you will still be able to spin the wheel. What happened to me when I loaded up the bearing, instead of the bearing taking the load, the back of the grease seal was pressing against the backing plate. I couldn't turn the wheel at all.



I would be interested to know about the length of your brake shoes that you have. Also what the slack adjuster at the bottom looks like.
Do you know the history of your car and about the front brakes?
Here is a link on this forum about the brakes and some findings that I have found.
http://www.vintagethunderbirdclub.net/p ... =6&t=13626

Karl.

[jrfjr]

With all that dust, it could meant they're not adjusting correctly (now or in the past), and are too tight and dragging. This might cause them to over heat, and cause hard (or soft?) spots to form in the drums, and might cause the pulsation. Just another thought. GL, Jim

[hemicharger69]

Great answers!

I will look at it this weekend. I will post what I find.

Amazing write-up Karl on brake hardware. I will post a picture of my setup.

[ICON 1956]

Nice write up Karl You have spent a lot of time getting into this stuff. Keep up the great work I do appreciate all the tidbits that you have contribute to this forum along with other members. This is a great forum to really learn about this car called the "bullet Bird".

[hemicharger69]

What is wrong with this picture? This is the passenger side.









See the brke dust?

[hemicharger69]

Wanted to mention that both wheels were not spinning freely. Wheels were able to turn with a little pressure but not spinning. Brake shoes were rubbing.

[jrfjr]

The brake dust may just be from normal wear. It looks like it's been a while since the drums have been taken off. I think the adjusters are probably doing their job.

Do the braking surfaces of the drums show uniform wear, or are there spotty shiny areas? The shiny places would not have the friction of the dull areas, and might cause what you describe. I think the shoes are worn enough to warrant replacement while you've got it apart (especially the lower part of the leading shoe). If you replace them, have the drums turned as well. It may just be time for a brake job.

YMMV & GL, Jim

[Karl]

G'day.
The brake shoes look like they are on the correct way.
The shoes appear to be the short shoes and this will have an effect with your slack adjuster and cable.


1. The anti rattle clip is on the wrong way around.
2. Is there a "Plate - rear brake shoe anchor guide" behind the anti rattle clip?
3. The distance from the bottom of the "lever brake shoe adjusting" to the center line of the "screw brake adjusting" should be 3/16" give or take a 1/32"
4. It looks like the cable is to long. If you have the short shoes on the car then the cable will need to be 10 15/16" long, not the 11 1/8" that is supplied with all of the generic self adjusting kits. This will have an effect on #3.
5. Because you have the short shoes the adjuster is wound out to far to take up the slack. At a guess I would say that the thread is getting to the end of its travel.
6.What's this?

Now I don't know, but I am wondering because the lever to do the self adjusting appears to be low, will this make your brakes stay more adjusted and maybe wear out quicker?

If you were to have the longer shoes than all of your self adjusting parts will work fine.

In the other photo is the grease seal wearing on the backing plate?
Karl.

[hemicharger69]

1. I will turn it around
2. Yes, there is a plate shoe guide.
3. and 4. Can I make this set up work somehow with the longer cable?
5. Yes, this is true.

The brake shoes have only been on the car for 1 year or about 1000-2000 miles.

Thank you for your help

[hemicharger69]

6. I don't know. It was so sort of clip that was on the car when I got it.

Would it be better to get a longer adjuster cable or better to get long brake shoes?

[jrfjr]

That is excessive wear for 1000-2000 miles. Sorry, I had assumed they had been on a while.

Karl may be on to something with the, shoes and/or hardware, and/or its installation. If they are constantly over-adjusted, or the springs aren't pulling them back properly after application of the brakes, the drums will run hot, and that causes problems.