Benidx Starter Drive Question

[ABQTBird]

Long story,
I bought a new starter motor and installed a new Bendix drive on it. I put the new starter in the car and cranked the engine for about 15 to 20 seconds with the spark plugs out in hopes of getting fuel to the carburetor. No fuel arrived so I came up with the idea of putting the plugs in to try to fire the motor up with starting fluid and get the fuel up to the carb that way. In the process of doing that, I ran the battery pretty dead and the starter motor quit with the Bendix apparently still engaged. I charged the battery overnight and tried again to start it. All I got was a click out of the starter relay. So I pulled the inspection cover off and could see that the Bendix was still engaged into the flywheel. I removed the starter and removed that dang pin again on the shaft and used a wire wheel to spin the Bendix back to its starting position, a trick I found on YouTube. My understanding is it takes about 300rpm to get it to retract.

My question is, should the starter motor be able to turn the engine over from a dead stop, even if the Bendix is already engaged? If so, could I have already burned the new starter motor out or are the rebuilt starter motors of lower torque or quality than the originals? I also actually tried to get the motor to turn by touching the motor cable directly to the positive terminal of the battery and it actually instantly melted the top of the battery post. The motor drew a lot of current without doing anything.

My understanding is that this type of starter motor was used in Ford tractors, as that is the only information I can find. I wish these had the throw-out type solenoid that engages the gear instead of this Rube Goldberg Bendix.

[ICON 1956]

I had a similar situation on my 65 Mustang with it's starter, The way you described it seems you fried/ of have frozen the starter . You might take it to a shop that specializes in alternators and starters and have them look at it or maybe un freeze the armature.

[ABQTBird]

It spins when it is out of the car. It just seems that it does not have enough torque to crank the engine. It's a brand new rebuilt, so I guess I will contact Bird Nest and see what they have to say. They may just have to send me another one.

[eb88]

I also bought a bird house 'rebuilt' starter for my '63 which lasted about a week. Any advice or testimonials of where a good one can be sourced would be much appreciated.

[novanutcase]

My starter never froze on the flywheel but when it died I had the original that came with the car rewound at a shop. Came it better than the one that came with the car. Originally, while it would start, it was a bit sluggish and underpowered but after I had it rebuilt it would start right up. One thing to keep in mind when you install your new starter is to put a heat shield on it. Although the rebuilt starter worked well for me in the beginning after a few years there was a noticeable decrease in it's power. I'm guessing it was because of being exposed to the heat of the engine.

John

[ABQTBird]

Thanks for the reply John. I am going to reinstall the new starter with the old Bendix. I don't think that it is going to do anything different. I really have the feeling this new motor lacks torque. I may just take up your suggestion and have the old one rebuilt locally. Out of curiosity, I took the old one apart to see what was inside and the copper windings are wrapped in a paper like material that has completely disintegrated. Although they want the core back for $35 I don't think it is worth spending $20+ to send it back. I did buy a rubber seal that fits around the opening at the trans and block, but it is rubber and not really a heat shield.

[tbird]

Tom
The starter did not originally have a heat shield on it and it should not be necessary, the early style starter did use the rubber splash shield that you have installed. Try running the starter fore awhile prior to installation to seat the brushes to the curvature of the armature, brushes today do not seem to be arced when they are made.

[ABQTBird]

Jim,
Thanks for the tips. Also, this engine is freshly rebuilt. I primed the oil pump before cranking it. When I did crank it, the motor and cables really heated up and drained the battery. Could the engine just be a bit stiff from the rebuild?

[tbird]

If it is stiff it should only be slightly, did a 66 a year ago had the machine shop do all the machine work but my friend assembles them and checks all clearances to make sure they are right and lubs everything as he puts it together. Just prior to starting we get the #1 cylinder on TDC pull the distributer and build up the oil pressure by running the pump with a shaft from a long style nut driver with the handle removed chucked in a drill then replace distributer and fire it right up with a full fuel bowl and a spray bottle of fuel into the carb usually starts on the second turn.

Do you have a group 27 battery or is a 29 or 24, a 29 should give you lots of cranking power?

Jim

[ABQTBird]

Just prior to starting we get the #1 cylinder on TDC pull the distributer and build up the oil pressure by running the pump with a shaft from a long style nut driver with the handle removed chucked in a drill then replace distributer and fire it right up with a full fuel bowl and a spray bottle of fuel into the carb usually starts on the second turn.

Yep, I did this exact procedure. I have a special Ford primer rod that attaches to a drill. I ran it counter-clockwise until oil came up the pushrods. The lifters were then filled and I was able to watch the valves and brought to 8° BTDC. I marked the distributor at #1 and stabbed it so that the rotor was right on it. I sprayed starter fluid in it and it ran for about 5 seconds then quit. There was no fuel in the carb yet, so I cranked it for another 15 seconds without starter fluid. The fuel pump is new. I am going to take a Mighty-Vac over there and see if I can pull fuel from the tank. There might be something restricting the fuel for all I know. So I may have just cranked all of juice out a questionable battery. I think it is a 27 but I do not know how old it is. I'll take my known good battery over there also.

I am also wondering if the starter relay could be going out. It is the original brown ceramic one. It makes a good click, but I suppose the internal contacts could be burned. I can check the resistance of that.

[redstangbob]

I am also wondering if the starter relay could be going out. It is the original brown ceramic one. It makes a good click, but I suppose the internal contacts could be burned. I can check the resistance of that.

Learn how to check voltage drop, this guy has very good videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRPLgH6uZg

[ABQTBird]

Thanks for the excellent video Bob. He emphasized perfect battery. I think that is what I have overlooked. I did measure voltage drop on the starter and it was down to 8 volts when it would not move, however, I did not measure the battery at the same time. I will try these readings since I have a drawer full of Harbor Freight meters. I did make a switch that allows me to activate the relay remotely rather from the key so I can see what is going on in the engine compartment. I will be over at my friend's on Friday and I will report back.

[redstangbob]

He emphasized perfect battery

Oh yeah, that's a big deal. He also uses 10 volts as a reference, there's a reason. When load testing a 12 volt battery, if you check the manufacturers charts, they all pretty much have a low-limit of around 9.5 under load. So a battery showing 10 volts is going to be good, most will turn a starter at around 11 volts. I like Dan, we're both truck guys. When a starter weighs ~70 lbs, you test before dropping them out