Power Window Stuck Up

[Crazy Guy]

OK, I've looked at all the historical threads on the topic and have tried most/all of the fixes to no avail.
I've got a '65. The driver window gets stuck in the up position which I see several people have issues with. Looking to see what finally fixed your issue since most of the threads here end in speculation and no "here's what finally fixed it" post.
Here's what I've done:
Got the car, none of the switches worked. (car was a basket case)
1. Rebuilt the switches at home. No biggie, pretty easy switches to work with but full of coffee and soda and whatever other black muck got poured in them.
Result- both front windows work, very slow and inconsistent.
2. Pulled the motors off and cleaned out all the dry grease from the gearboxes and replaced with clean wheel bearing grease. Regulators look fine, replaced some of the plastic rollers as needed.
Result- both windows go up and down lightning fast, but the driver window gets stuck in the up position almost every time, especially if left alone for a day. If I rap on the motor with a hammer while activating the switch, it shoots down like it's supposed to. The hammer trick works every time, but I want to install my door panel!
3. Replaced the motor with a spare used motor I had from a parts car. It was a right side motor, so I swapped the little gearbox.
Result- no change.
4.Spend many hours just messing with regulator and tracks and rollers and up-stops
Result- no change.
5. Adjusted the gearbox stop set screw as outlined somewhere on the forum.
Result- no change
6. Bought a new motor from T-Bird HQ and installed it.
Result- now I get a lot more uses out of the window before having the same result. Stuck up. (Still only a day or two of driving before it sticks)
7. With the window stuck up I loosened the up stops and the regulator mount bolts and tried to run the window down- checking for bind
Result- Won't go down.
8. Unplugged the motor from the car and jumped power and ground direct to the motor from a battery charger set on 10 amp charge.
Result- the window shot down as it should. Maybe it's just not getting enough amps through the switch/wiring??
9. Replaced the power window harness that goes from the switches to the rear windows and up to the plug under the dash. (did not replace from the dash into the door) This used harness came from my parts car.
Result- no change
10. Trying to avoid wasting more $ on the problem, I swapped the plugs for the left and right PW switches to test if the switch is the problem (not passing enough amps) the problem should switch to the passenger window.
Result- no change. (Glad I didn't buy a $40 switch)
11. ?? Well, what to try next?
The only thing I can see that is likely worn out and mentioned in previous posts is the rubber bumpers in the up-stops. I have not replaced those yet, but I have had the problem even with the stops completely loosened from the door. Not saying it can't be them, but...

I probably missed a couple steps here in my outline, I've got Sooooo may hours in this problem. Please ask questions and make suggestions. If you solved this problem on yours, let me know what did it! I'll try anything again that I've already done, but maybe there's something I've missed. I need this to work consistently so I can get the door panel on so my outside mirror remote will work so my daughter is safer daily driving the car. (also makes drive thru fast food much easier!)

[paulr]

Many have been where you are. Do not underappreciate the value of coincidence and/or voodoo.
Didn't have the same problem in front windows. My quarters gave me identical sticking issues, both with new and old working motors. When I swapped out console to motor neutral wiring in an effort to lessen resistance, the locking up ceased. Of course, now I've gone and jinxed it by telling this out loud, so excuse me while I go tear out the back seat and start troubleshooting. Best,

Paul

[Crazy Guy]

OK, Paul, by your experience, I should continue with the wiring harness between the dash and the door, correct? Three wires.
BTW, I have tried adding an extra ground wire from the window motor to the chassis with no luck. Forgot to mention that in the OP.

[redstangbob]

You didn't mention if you checked for voltage drop from the relay to the switch bank. You cold be loosing voltage at several points in that old harness. good luck, Bob C

[DaveyJ]

Yes i would be looking for corroded/loose bullet connectors in the harness or partially broken wires internally --- broken strands in the braided copper conductors where they pass through the door hinge and are constantly flexed back and forth by opening and closing the doors for years can cause metal fatigue and they will break (eg dishwasher door wiring failing)... the window motor draws max current right when its starting to move the glass - if any of the bullet connections are weak or there are significant # of broken strands the there will be voltage drop combined with inability to pass the current period in the case of the bullet connection and not enough electrical juice to make the motor turn under inrush conditions. I haven't opened up my power window motors but if there are internal limit switches (fully up / fully down) that would also be a place to look.

[Crazy Guy]

I have not checked for voltage drop to the switch bank only because the other windows do work, and I get 12v+ (whatever the battery is at) at the driver window motor. I have not checked for voltage drop with the motor hooked up. I'll do that tonight. Makes sense to check that if it's pulling too many amps for the wiring to handle, there will be a visible drop. The window is stuck right now, so it's a good time for testing.
Davey J- there is a switch inside the motors that disconnects when the load is high- that way the motor doesn't try to turn after the window is all the way up or down. I took apart one of my used motors and it looked beautiful inside. EDIT: I have yet to proove this- I read it somewhere, but when the window is all the way up or down, or stuck it still seems to draw amps all the same, like there is no actual disconnect in there.
The OEM motors are dipped in rubber to completely seal out all moisture and contaminants. Since I've had three motors in there now, I pretty much have ruled out faulty motors or internal motor issues.
I will check for voltage drop to the motor. Worn wires thru the door jamb makes a lot of sense. Certainly worth checking, and easy to fix or bypass.

[kevindeluca66]

What happens if you bump the switch a couple of times when the window gets close to the top. What if you leave the window just a hair when it gets to the top. I have learned the hard way not to put my windows DOWN all the way or they get stuck and need help getting up which can be hard when they are stuck inside the door. I now leave them up about a half an inch.

[paulr]

Worn wires thru the door jamb makes a lot of sense. Certainly worth checking, and easy to fix or bypass.

Per your speculation, all our issues are harness spooks or will be eventually. My quarter problems aren't really relevant to what you're dealing with what with wire flex. I remember one guy teaching me how it is entirely possible for a wire to break within the insulation and reveal no clue of that. I fully agree, it is not a motor problem. Did the same thing as you did once; sliced through the rubber on the old motor to inspect the inside and found a perfect shiny copper armature--resealed the cut with liquid tape.
Voltage drop was mentioned above. That's it. Assuming your contacts and wiring are intact and not modified, it's a matter of resistance. Best,

Paul

[BrianC]

Here's the way I would do it---Use all safety precautions because you are bypassing all breakers and fuses and -----Unplug your window motor, and run a jumper line in to the interior direct from the battery, and try operating it in short spurts, to avoid a situation where the window is still stuck and drawing a lot of amps. That will prove if you have a voltage drop problem. I haven't been in that area for a while, so you would have to figure out which connector points to hit on the motor plug to make it work up and down. Again, be careful not to let the '+' cable hit any part of the car ground to avoid sparks and shorts. If the window doesn't get stuck, you have your answer, and just have to figure out where the voltage drop is, working backward from the motor.

[Crazy Guy]

I did a lot of playing with the volt meter last night. The voltage drop is significant, and it is everywhere. With no load I get 12v+ at the plug inside the door. When the window is stuck and I power it through the switch, the voltage at that plug drops to ~6v. Not enough to make it move from the stuck position. When I jump power straight to the motor plug, the voltage drop is much less, I get ~11v and it is enough to un-stick the window. Amp draw on start is ~10 amps, and ~3-5 amps the rest of the way down, BTW.
Tracing the wires back, I have voltage drops all along the harness starting all the way back at the relay on the firewall. Every few inches of wire the voltage drop is worse. UGH! I was hoping for a wire break somewhere, not just a bad harness.
This morning I dug through my parts pile and got out my extra harness. To my delight, the front window harness is stand alone, like the rear window harness that I already replaced. I'll try swapping in this harness without going to the trouble to route it under the dash and thru the doors and see if that fixes anything. The car is being daily driven, so I really don't want to tear out the dash again right now.
Tonight I'll ohm out the new and old harnesses to see if there is a gain to be had. If not, I may just build a new harness based on the spare that I have on the floor.

[Crazy Guy]

Ok, another weekend of fun!
I checked ohms on every part of the circuit. Everything is well within spec- no part was more than .2 ohms. The current drop thru the system that I recorded earlier is when the window is stuck and the motor is trying to draw 17+ amps thru the system which it cannot handle.
When I jump the motor with something that can handle 20+ amps (fat wire from battery or a battery charger) the window goes down. When the window is not stuck, it draws about 10amps to start and 5 amps while running up or down, which seems totally normal.
I had suspected but was hesitant to say for sure before, but mine acts like many others in that I can run it up and down dozens of times in a row with no problem. Let it sit in the up position for a couple hours and it gets stuck.
I tried a new test- With the window stuck, I removed the bolts that hold the regulator/motor to the door. Voila, the motor spins no problem, so it seems like a mechanical bind.
I pulled the motor and spring off the regulator and re-installed the regulator in the door. By hand, the window goes up and down with no hint of bind or any kind of resistance whatsoever. Now that's pulling from the window, not driving thru the regulator. I can't really do it "right" by lifting the window using the regulator gear with my hand.
Inspecting the regulator, it seems totally fine. There is no play in either of the pivots and all the teeth look good. All three plastic rollers are nice- not worn.
I looked for a new regulator, but I didn't find anybody selling them?? Anybody know where to get one? Not sure if it would help or not.
The replaceable gear in the motor (plastic gear with springs etc) looks really nice. There seems to be no wear to the plastic teeth, the spring locators or the steel gear. I'd replace that, but it seems totally fine.
Currently I am having my daughter blip the window down a tiny bit every time she rolls it up. It seems to not get stuck when using this method, as others have also reported. I would very much prefer to actually fix the problem and I don't know what else to do.

[BrianC]

Did you check the condition of motor brushes?

[Crazy Guy]

Did you check the condition of motor brushes?

Yes, on the two used motors that I installed, and they looked beautiful. I am not going to pull apart this brand new motor to look at the brushes.

[Crazy Guy]

Tried something new last night.
I took the regulator out and the motor off. I inspected the relationship of all the moving parts especially at the fully "up" position. I noticed two things that may be an issue.

1. There is a raised portion of the regulator base that aligns the gear part of the regulator. At full up position, the half moon of the gear part isn't riding up on the guide bump yet. I theorized that the gear part may be hitting the edge or start of the guide and jamming there. I got out my trusty grinder and added a ramp at the beginning of the gear so it is less likely to get caught there. I also cleaned and added grease there. See picture for details of this.
Picture #1 shows the gear in the full up position, note the sharpie marks indicating the position.

Picture #2 shows it past full up so you can see the end of the guide bump.

In picture #3 you can see a shiny spot at the end of the path of the guide.

Picture #4 shows the ramp I added to the end of the gear.


2. I was looking at the window motor gear. It rides on a shaft which is in double shear between the motor housing and the regulator. I noticed there was a fair amount of gap between the face of the gear and the cage formed by the regulator. I theorized that the worm drive of the motor could drive the gear up and down the fixed shaft due to this gap, so I added a copper thrust washer to take up the gap.

The motor worked after dinner, and again this morning. That's better than I have had in months, but I'm not holding my breath. If it works all day I'll start to get happy and move on to other parts of the car.

[Crazy Guy]

Nope. Still gets stuck up.
Grr. This is most frustrating. Back to the drawing board.
Today I just loosened the four screws that hold the regulator to the door and that was enough to make it work. I'm done for tonight. I'll just have her blip it down a touch each time she rolls it up. It makes no sense that it has to sit for hours to get stuck.