Convertible top relay replacement project

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apines
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:05 pm

Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by apines »

Hi, all,
I've been lurking and learning here for quite a bit and I want to share my project with you. I have a '66 Q-code convertible that looks as though it sat for many years. It runs pretty well but when I got it the convertible top bits had all been disassembled by a previous owner. It's all there but some of it's pretty rotted or bent. I'm trying to replace only what I have to (like the top ram with the bent shaft). Both banks of relays were pretty corroded. I know from what I've read here how difficult it can be to test and track down electrical problems with the top so I made my own solid state relay bank circuit board (day job, meet hobby). It connects without needing to cut the harness plus it has no mechanical contacts, just really big transistors. I sized it to mount on the plate where the relays were. Here's what it looks like next to the original relays:
Image

And here's what's underneath:
Image

This is it installed on the left side (if I ever re-spin it I need to make a little more room between the connectors and add cutouts to access the screws that hold the plate to the car):
Image

And it works! Pressing a button turns on the associated relay. A yellow LED next to the button lights to indicate that the "coil" is energized and a green one by each pole of the relay lights to show how much current is being drawn through that pole (brighter=more). Using it I've found that the deck lock and panel retract motors are both working, though the panel motor has a little jump in it as it cycles that makes me think its gearbox has a bad tooth (I haven't put the panel back on yet so it's running unloaded). I also learned that the solenoid valves all seem to work and the pump spins in both directions but it leaks. Next step will be to disassemble and (I hope) rebuild the pump. I've already replaced the top up limit switch, which was pretty well destroyed, and I need to somehow bend one of the deck cylinder limit switches' mounting bracket back into shape.

Anyway, I hope you find this interesting. It's been fun working it out.

-Andrew
current:
1966 Ford Thunderbird Q-code convertible with Highway Pilot
1975 Triumph Spitfire
past:
1955 Ford Thunderbird
1974 Triumph TR6
1968 Ford Galaxie convertible
1974 VW Super Beetle
1981 Checker Marathon
VTCI membership #12807
RAVEN
Posts: 1852
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:33 am

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by RAVEN »

VERY INTERESTED! I like what you have done, very neat and compact. Do you have an idea of manufacturing cost? There is a retro pack out there to replace the old relays with new ones, but also requires to cut off the plugs. Your system does not need that so it is quite interesting.
Like the idea, keep us posted on your developments.
As they say, there are more ways to skin a cat, you just offered a new one.
CDN Member since 1975 #2086
Flock: 1964 Landau Original Family Owned
1964 Sr Convertible "RAVEN"
Past: 2003 Blk Lab "RAVEN" "RIP"Nov 15/17
1964 Lincoln vin4Y86N00007
1964 Red Convertible
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liamski
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:11 am
Location: Dunstable. UK

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by liamski »

Looks like a great solution to me, it's much neater than other solutions out there.
I'm sure if you were to produce it you would have lots of interest.
apines
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by apines »

Thanks for the encouragement! I really only did it because I thought it would help me diagnose my completely dismantled system faster but I'm sure others would find it useful, too. I'd need to do a bunch of things to it before it'd be ready to share. It needs to be potted or conformally coated so it'd be protected against shorts and corrosion. I'd need to be really sure it could survive an overcurrent condition like a shorted solenoid or motor coil without failing or doing anything unexpected. Also, it'd be nice if it had a cable with buttons for remote control so you could manually unlock and open the trunk if a limit switch fails or gets stuck. Mine's a '66 so I designed to that; it should work on any 64-66 but I don't know as much about the older ones so I'd have to look into what it would take to make it universal.

I started by making individual relays but didn't really think through how I was going to mount them and decided it made more sense to have a single board for each bank. If anyone wants to play with these let me know; I made eight and now I don't really need them. They can be made to take the place of either a single or double pole relay. They have a button to force them on, an LED for the coil, and one for each pole to show current draw. The wire is ground since it doesn't have a case like a real relay. It's not insulated so you have to be careful to keep it from touching anything but it's still kind of nice for diagnosing electrical issues.

Image
current:
1966 Ford Thunderbird Q-code convertible with Highway Pilot
1975 Triumph Spitfire
past:
1955 Ford Thunderbird
1974 Triumph TR6
1968 Ford Galaxie convertible
1974 VW Super Beetle
1981 Checker Marathon
VTCI membership #12807
Joe Johnston
Posts: 2638
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:34 pm
Location: Sunny FLORIDA

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by Joe Johnston »

Finding good working relays for the 61 - 66 convertibles always seems to be a bit of a problem, or they are thought of to be too expensive for many to buy. I know a couple of owners that haven't put their tops down for years and and one that gave up years ago when his trunk didn't open. Lack of use seems to be a big villain with the old relays and your solid state solution may be a big help for everyone. Next step is to see if what you have interchanges with the Bullet Birds!

Awesome project and solution!
PLEASE invest a few bucks and buy all the shop manuals for your car. Definitely will save you much time and be an education.

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jtschug
Posts: 1479
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:33 pm

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by jtschug »

Wow! I had no idea there were transistors out there that could handle the kind of loads these motors induce.

Great work!
1966 Thunderbird Convertible (Emberglo / White-Emberglo)
Modified 428 - stroked, rollercam, aluminum top end, headers
Livermore, CA
tbird
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 11:07 pm
Location: Tyndall MB. Canada

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by tbird »

The operation of a 61/63 top is the same as the 64/66 and in fact I believe that the mounting plate is the same, a couple of the relays have a different part number on them but may not effect operation at all. I have both the systems but have not compared them on detail.
Jim Mills
VTCI # 8071
VTCI 1964-66 Technical Editor
2002 Thunderbird
1965 Convertible
1962 Convertible (in progress)
1959 Ford Retractable HT
Many parts cars
BillT
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 2:25 pm

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by BillT »

I'd certainly like one of your individual relays to diagnose my convertible top issues. The ability to see the relative current draw is a big plus IMHO.

How would I go about getting one.

Thanks - Bill
apines
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by apines »

Sorry if this is a double post; I thought I posted a reply but it didn't seem to show up.

I took a look at the 61-63 setup and it looks like everything's the same but the relays are arranged differently which would require a different board layout (not a big deal). I'd need some help from someone with a bullet bird to confirm that the mounting plate is the same to be sure that the holes all line up correctly. Someone asked about cost -- I haven't worked it through to get a solid number but one board should be less than a set of four relays from the usual parts houses.

The parts I used on this pass can handle 55A. The manual says worst case (top or deck lid up or down) is 70A so I have two in parallel for the pump. I'll improve that for the next spin.

Bill, just PM me with your address and I'll drop one in the mail. If you have a soldering iron I'll toss in a couple of extra terminals otherwise let me know if you want it to be set up as a single or double pole relay. The harness connectors have the unused pins blocked so those pins need to be removed from the board or bent back for it to fit into the harness. I haven't done any real testing on it yet so I don't know how it will behave if the output gets shorted or something like that. Also, I didn't test them at full load yet so it's possible it will shut down (or worse, fail) if you use it to run the pump for a real cycle. It's not insulated or protected so be careful. It's just a prototype at this point. Let me know if you see ways to improve it.

-Andrew
current:
1966 Ford Thunderbird Q-code convertible with Highway Pilot
1975 Triumph Spitfire
past:
1955 Ford Thunderbird
1974 Triumph TR6
1968 Ford Galaxie convertible
1974 VW Super Beetle
1981 Checker Marathon
VTCI membership #12807
BrianC
Posts: 600
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:56 am
Location: South Jersey, East of Philly

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by BrianC »

This is a great idea, but let Mr. Apines do more testing first. I know many would be chomping at the bit to get a complete control board that he made here. As he is aware, you have to cover a lot of variables and contingencies when designing an electrical component into an existing system, especially when selling it to the owners of these cars. How many cycles will it last? What happens when it tries to pull a high load due to a stuck mechanical part? Will it function in all temps? He really has a nice system here, but let him shake It down more first.
'66 Ragtop, 77k miles. Antique bronze. Brought from original owner. Fully documented.
BillT
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 2:25 pm

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by BillT »

I have sent you the info via PM - and many thanks.

Also, I think we all are curious to know what facilities you have available to you to create the extremely professional looking circuit boards, connector pin insertions, chip install soldering, etc. etc.

Bill
apines
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by apines »

Brian's right -- it's early and I have a lot of testing and tweaking to do before I'm comfortable sending out a complete solution (it's one thing to set my own car on fire....). It's conceivable that it could fail shorted which could be pretty bad. I need to ensure that doesn't happen.

As to how I made the boards, I'm happy to share. My main gig is designing hardware and software for a pinball manufacturer so I've spent a lot of time making boards that control solenoids and motors. The schematic and layout package is EAGLE which can be downloaded here:
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/download-eagle/

You can do a lot with the free version. It generates files that can be turned into circuit boards. I use Twisted Traces; they have an inexpensive "co-op" board where your board gets run with a bunch of others to keep costs low:
https://www.twistedtraces.com

The parts all came from Digikey http://www.digikey.com or Mouser http://www.mouser.com. The board's pretty simple so I hand-soldered the parts.
current:
1966 Ford Thunderbird Q-code convertible with Highway Pilot
1975 Triumph Spitfire
past:
1955 Ford Thunderbird
1974 Triumph TR6
1968 Ford Galaxie convertible
1974 VW Super Beetle
1981 Checker Marathon
VTCI membership #12807
apines
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by apines »

I made some more progress. I rebuilt the pump (cleaned it out, installed new O-rings, cleaned the commutator and brushes), flushed the hoses and cylinders, and re-assembled the deck lid hydraulics. The relay board is now lifting and lowering the deck lid and doesn't seem to be having any trouble doing so. Having buttons to poke at makes the process a lot easier. Good stuff so far. I haven't re-mounted the tonneau panel yet because I want to disassemble and check out the panel motor first.

On the down side, the deck lid continues to drift upward after running up though it stops dead after running downward (see movie, below). From what I've been reading I'm guessing that this is a faulty cylinder (I didn't replace them) but if someone has some insight I'm all ears.

Also, the pump seems really loud but I don't have anything to compare it to. Maybe the sound in the movie below will sound familiar (or foreign) to someone out there.

Lastly, I discovered that the pivot for the left top cylinder (the one that mounts the cylinder to the body, not the top frame) is missing. So far that's been the only bit that's outright missing but I haven't had much luck locating a replacement. I may need to fabricate something.

I hope to have the top operating within the next couple of weeks.

http://www.cosmodog.com/tbird/IMG_8861.MOV
current:
1966 Ford Thunderbird Q-code convertible with Highway Pilot
1975 Triumph Spitfire
past:
1955 Ford Thunderbird
1974 Triumph TR6
1968 Ford Galaxie convertible
1974 VW Super Beetle
1981 Checker Marathon
VTCI membership #12807
Joe Johnston
Posts: 2638
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:34 pm
Location: Sunny FLORIDA

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by Joe Johnston »

A slight drift up might be an indication of trapped air on that side of the system pushing the lid up as it decompresses.
PLEASE invest a few bucks and buy all the shop manuals for your car. Definitely will save you much time and be an education.

55-57 VTCI Forum Moderator
57 Inca Gold-Colonial White
63SR Silver Mink
tbird
Posts: 2586
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 11:07 pm
Location: Tyndall MB. Canada

Re: Convertible top relay replacement project

Post by tbird »

The operation does sound a bit noisy but your camera is almost on top of the pump and would assume that you likely do not have any sound deadener or trunk liner in place, are the rubber isolation grommets installed on the pump feet?

The operation appeared to be very jerky but could just of been the upload speed or may be due to air in the system which will be trapped in the dead end hoses or cylinders.

Try bleeding the system as described in the shop manual, you will likely have to bleed the top cylinder hoses by loosening the flare plug at the dead end if the cylinders are not in stalled and working.
Jim Mills
VTCI # 8071
VTCI 1964-66 Technical Editor
2002 Thunderbird
1965 Convertible
1962 Convertible (in progress)
1959 Ford Retractable HT
Many parts cars
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