Looking at 1961 Thunderbird Convertible

[d307p]

I registered for the forums several weeks ago and have read almost all the posts for 1961-63. I have learned a lot and found so much good information.

My friend's 87 year old father is willing to sell me his 1961 Thunderbird Convertible that has 44,584 original miles. This is basically an unrestored original car. There may be a new engine part but I am not verse enough on Thunderbirds to tell. He bought the car in 1972 from a woman and the car has basically sat in a unheated building for the last 40 years, maybe only driven 20 miles in the last 30 years. About 4 years ago the son who is a heck of mechanic put on new brakes, drums, shoes, hardware, master cyl and vacuum booster, new fuel tank.

If I buy the car the son said he will take it to a local garage that does a lot of vintage car work and get it running, have the guys install new leaf springs, pull the transmission and reseal it, new filter, new fluid, new torque converter settings and fluid, and probably shocks.

I went to look at car tonight and the paint is nice but is in need of claying, compounding, and waxing. The chrome is nice for a driver, not a show car. Engine compartment looks nice. The interior is free of tears or rips, but from sitting so long, the seats have like a mold on them. I am not sure if it is leather or vinyl, and I am wondering if a good cleaner would take care of cleaning the mold? The dash looks like it would need recovered, not torn, but some ripples I guess from moisture.

Car does not have AC, but has power windows and power drivers seat. Don't know if top goes down but that expense would be on me.

Car was parked with cars all around so I could not open doors to look for VIN plate, but an insurance card showed number was 1Y73Z109752.
I could not really see underneath but I snapped some pictures underneath.

The father wants $16,000 for the car and that is with the leaf springs replaced and transmission work and getting it running.

I am not looking for show car quality, just a safe driver that my wife and I can have fun with.

Tires are G-78-15 and I would replace them with American Classic 2 1/2 inch whitewall radials.

I am posting pictures to give you an idea of the car. If I posted too many pics, I apologize.

Thanks for any help,
Dave Presto
Mount Joy, PA






















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[d307p]

In case anyone is wondering, that is an unrestored 1970 Plymouth Superbird with 440 six pack and 28,000 original miles next to the Thunderbird. That one belongs to my friend.

[Beach Bum]

A very nice find. It's amazing that things like this are still turning up, buried in garages, at this late date. If it were a hardtop model, $16,000 would be too much for the condition it is in... but, as a convertible the price might be a bit more attractive. I would still find it too high myself, but others might not think it a bad deal (a lot depends on if the convertible top up-and-down trunk mechanism is working -- that can cost a lot to fix if it is not).

In the end it depends on how badly you want the convertible model. Certainly in the case of hardtops you can buy a Bullet Bird in much, much better condition for far less than $16 K.

[Joe Johnston]

Dave - I agree it is a nice find and looks like a solid car that basically needs some TLC. Cleaning and conditioning products will take care of the mold/mildew on the seats - just a washing with detergent should make a big difference.

I don't think the price is out of line, considering getting it running, the trans work, shocks and other work could amount to quite a bit if you had to pay for it yourself.

The top looks nice and the best thing you can do is to buy the manuals for the top operation and repair. Trust me you will need them sooner or later. My 63 was also in long term storage and worked fine at first, but soon needed work. The top operation is a bit overwhelming at first, but the manuals break things down and explain how only one thing happens at a time. Be prepaired to learn how to work on the top yourself because "mechanics" today have no experience with them. The manuals are the only correct source of information and without them anyone is just guessing at the solution to a problem.

If it runs well and looks good in the sunlight, I say go for it!!

[d307p]

Would the interior (dash and seats) on this '61 be vinyl or leather? I looked at the Sticky post about data plates and both seemed to be offered. I could not access the data plate on the car last night.

[Brian Harris]

In order to provide relevant advice, it would be helpful to see pics of your other "vintage" cars as a point of reference for your expectations and level of satisfaction.

From the pics above, I'm not afraid of that car at all except that it is a BEGETS... what I mean, at least for me, is that repairing/restoring one thing will beget restoring/repairing the next, until the whole damn thing is restored. That's prolly just me as I sometimes just dont know when to quit.

In that context, I think $16k is high by half. While I may have been called a thief, that car is very near the condition of the `62 SR I got for $10k after it had been stored (more like tarped in a corner) in an industrial warehouse for 17 years. Yours has some neat little details, like the springs that hold the e-brake cables to the leaf springs. On the other hand, it's also seen a paint job by the looks of the overspray on the voltage regulator and strut braces in the motor bay... doesnt mean damage repair, but doesnt mean just cosmetic either.

I think of things like dried/deformed/non-plyable body seals, motor and driveline seals, hoses of all kinds (top hydraulics, brake, cooling, vacuum, etc.), hidden and reoccuring mold mildew, corrosion on electrical contacts. Many of these flaws turn up as gremlins once it's comfortably sitting in your garage or in route to your favorite ice cream parlor.

"Barn finds" are great if 1) it's a rare/special find, or 2) if they are both a steal. IMO, this one may not be either... yet.

Just another perspective, from far away, in a different pair of shoes.

Brian


tranny seals, truck

[Beach Bum]

Here's a web page that shows all of the interior trim options for the 1961 Thunderbird. As you can see, the descriptions for the leather seat covering options don't come anywhere near what is shown in your pictures, so they definitely are not leather:

http://automotivemileposts.com/tbird196 ... rtrim.html

Even with the vinyl covering descriptions, I only see one that might be close to your pictures, and that is number 76 -- black with light gray inserts. If those inserts are pure bright white, then the seats were recovered with aftermarket vinyl. Nothing wrong with that if the job was done well and from what I can see it looks good, but what's on them now may not be a match to the original seat coverings, which matters to some buyers. When you can see the driver's side door plate, there will be a trim code on it that will tell you for sure what color seats were there originally.

I note that the while the dash looks in very good condition that the ends are squashed, indicating it is not the original, but a replacement dash that was not fit well to the car.

Consider: If the seats have been recovered and the dash pad replaced, that casts at least some doubt on the idea that the car only has 44,000 original miles on it. But no point in getting into that with the seller, because there's no way to prove mileage one way or the other on cars this old, unless the seller has a really good paper trail to document the claim.

The under carriage is clean and looks to have only light surface rust in some places and the engine compartment looks very nice -- that's a real plus as those are important and costly areas to repair. I mostly agree with Brian about the overall value/price... except I wonder how long ago it was he found his $10K SR convertible? Even forgetting about the Sports Roadster package, undiscovered Bullet Bird convertibles have become pretty rare and in any condition the prices on them overall have continued to rise. The work to get this one running, to the refresh on the tranny, put in new leaf springs and the rest is probably worth $3,000 to $4,000 at most shops, so that brings down the price for the car 'as is' closer to $12,000 - $13,000. Pricey, but not outrageous for a convertible in this condition.

[d307p]

I thought the sides were just shrinkage from age and moisture. I stopped over at an uphosltry shop I use today beside Manheim Auto Auction and the guy said it would be really hard to redo dash. He said only if someone else would remove dash and I brought it in.

[Beach Bum]

Um, no, neither age nor moisture would not cause that kind of 'shrinkage' -- and if it had, the rest of the interior would be in pretty bad condition. It's almost certainly a replacement dash.

There are very good quality aftermarket replacement dashes that can fit very well available from most of the specialty T-bird parts shops. but they can cost $500 and up. And yes, the old dash has to be completely removed which is a very involved process and a lot of finicky work has to be done to get the new one in. If you're just looking for a daily driver, what's in there will probably work fine at least for now while you concentrate on other things.

If you do some searching you'll find quite a few threads about dash replacement in the forum archives.

[d307p]

Nice, safe, driver for my wife and I to have fun with. So if dash is a complex issue (or expensive) I would probably just live with it since there are no tears or rips.

I called my friend back today and he is going to get it started and pull it out of the garage maybe next week so we can see what works and what does not work (top, power windows, power drivers seat, lights, etc). I will check data plate at that time.

The inserts on the seats are definately white and not gray. I did find one with the same interior look that is being auctioned in Ft. Lauderdale in a few weeks. That one looks white also

[Ken Stevens]

I see the fender skirt pins are not there, nor are there holes for them. Was that typical for these cars when skirts were not factory ordered? I know SRs didn't have them, but I thought I'd ask.

[Jim Wulf]

I see the fender skirt pins are not there, nor are there holes for them. Was that typical for these cars when skirts were not factory ordered? I know SRs didn't have them, but I thought I'd ask.

All Bulletbirds had the required holes for fender shields when delivered from the factory, including Sports Roadsters. It would not have been economically feasible for Ford to have implemented a completely separate set of dies to stamp out quarter panels without holes for the small number of Sports Roadsters that were produced. When you see a car that has no fender shield holes, that is a positive indication that quarter panel work has been done on the car.

The fender shield pins themselves were not installed on the Sports Roadster models. They may not have been installed on other body styles that were not ordered with this option, but I've never seen a survey addressing that issue. Alan would know about that for sure.

[Wklink]

16K seems a little rich for me, especially for what is a moderately optioned convertible that hasn't seen the road in a while.

You need to remember this with the old bird-these cars need to be driven. It would be fairly easy to get her running and moving again but that wouldn't make her a reliable road car. She will probably need every bit of rubber replaced in the engine compartment to start and the seals for the tranny and engine are probably shot as well. Expect to spend some serious $$$ to get all of that working well. Who knows about the exhaust or if there are any manifold cracks (61 and 62 birds were notorious for this) that will need repaired. Likewise the power steering hasn't been used in a while, expect possible problems. You might also have issues with the generator, something that can either be replaced with an alternator or rebuilding the old generator.

As for the top, if it hasn't been used in a while you also might as well expect to replace all of the lines for the hydraulic system. The relays may or may not work as well. There are some nice replacement electronic relays that will work well and don't cause the headaches that the orginals do.

Yep, there are some things that just look wrong. If you had a pic of the data plate on the drivers side door inside jamb we could tell what the original color of the seats were, but all things being what it is they probably were black vinyl. Luckily, the white is easily dyed black so you could get away with fixing that with very little cost outlay. The dash pad will need replaced, not cheap but again, black is the best color to have because it doesn't need to be dyed. Door panels look good which is a plus.

Personally, I wouldn't give more than 13K for this car, in running condition. It will take at least another 4K (IMHO) to make it a reliable driver with a working top. it has a lot of plusses, it looks to be original paint and the car is very solid, certainly a good basic T-bird convertible. But I wouldn't pay 16K for a SR in that shape as it sits.

[Steverino]

First, a warm welcome Dave!

Second, there are a few of us on here in the Central PA area... I live just north of Lititz. Let me know if I can be of help - just a phone call / email / short drive away.

Third, about the car: I agree with much of what the other fellas have said here. I think $16K is the max you'd want to pay, and probably a bit high. Since she's sat so much, you need to assume that a fair amount of stuff needs to be renewed / replaced to make her reliable & safe. Because she's a convert and is on the East coast, I'd want to get a really good look at the floors & underside - check for rust. Also, run a magnet around the rockers & low spots to check for filler & rust. I suspect there may have been at least one "resale" paint job done & none too carefully. Jim's comment about the skirt pins also makes me a bit wary. I'm wondering why the floor behind the drivers side front wheel (the underside picture) appears to be sagging...maybe an illusion, or tinworm? The dash pad is clearly an overlay or replacement. Another source for dash restoration is Just Dashes in Calif. Not cheap, but good. If the swaybar end link bushings are any indication, the front suspension may be in need of a rebuild.

All of that said, converts don't come around just everyday, and often are more expensive than this. However, depending on this car's needs and how picky you are, you could drop several thousand into her without trying too hard. So take your hoped-for purchase price, add to it your guesstimated costs to make it what you'd like, and then decide if you're more interested in the journey (i.e. the project) or just turning the key and taking the drive. If it's the former, maybe this is your cup of tea if the price is right for you (especially if your a DIY kind of guy). If it's the latter, you may want to spend a bit more & get a car that someone else has already gotten into pretty good shape.

Anyway, enough rambling for now. I'll be interested to hear what you find when you see it next...

[Grumpy Gary]

I am not much of a T-Bird expert YET, but have been doing some research on different subjects as I am buying one shortly. Took an interest in the one you posted. I found this website that addresses your mold problem on your upholstery. http://www.leatherrenew.com/faq.php

They suggest to first kill the mold with a 1 part bleach to 3 parts water solution. Hope this helps