Leak on passenger floor

[PapaBird]

Heading home from a car show today my wife had her feet covered in a brown fluid that sprayed out from under the dash. At the time smoke came out from the vents and coated the windshield. I thought that the heater core blew but when I wiped my finger in it the fluid came up clear and has no smell to it. Looking see if anyone has a thought to what this could be. Should add that the car is a 1964. Thanks for any help.

[Alan H. Tast]

You would be well advised to check the heater core. Have you checked the strength of anti-freeze in the system? When was it last flushed or changed? Is your car equipped with Air Conditioning or just the heater?

[PapaBird]

The AC was deleted and the coolant system was flushed a year ago when I had a local garage put in new freeze plugs that were leaking. Well at least they told me they flushed the whole system. I will double check the heater core though.

A local guy here seems to think that the wiper motor might be the cause of the leak because the leak is right next to the center console.

[RAVEN]

If you had a wiper motor failure, you would have power steering fluid leaking, and we all know it is bright red, so I kind of doubt it. Secondly the steering would get very heavy, and the pump would start to whine. Since the wiper motor is located in the front cowl area, you would have oil draining from the flexible drain tubes beside the hood hinges, in the engine compartment.
You said a brown liquid, and it filmed the windshield. Did you check the surge tank, when cool, and see the anti-freeze colour? Usually ethy- gycol is green or yellow, based on manufacturer, and GM Dexcool is orange.
I have seen in some cars where the cowl drains choke up from leaves and other organic materials, and when it rains the water entering the cowl area backs up and is funneled into the fresh air ducts, one of which enters the heater box, where the fan can blow it up to the windshield, or drain onto your feet. Swamp water is brownish
Just possible other areas to check.

[paulr]

The AC was deleted and the coolant system was flushed a year ago when I had a local garage put in new freeze plugs that were leaking. Well at least they told me they flushed the whole system. I will double check the heater core though.

A local guy here seems to think that the wiper motor might be the cause of the leak because the leak is right next to the center console.

1) Depending on how the A/C "delete" was done, as RAVEN suggested it's possible that coolant vapor was routed into the defrost duct work, caused by possible vacuum problems relating to the former A/C. I've seen some doosies.
2) The hydraulic wiper/power steering footprint doesn't cross the firewall/dashboard barrier. A physical impossibility for PS fluid to enter the cabin.
3) If the coolant system replacement was performed using undistilled water, you may have a new rust issue, accounting for brown. Probably not...but maybe. It's happened before.
4) Ultimately, this is a heater core at least.

[RAVEN]

Paul in respect to the wiper oil not entering the cabin; it is possible, if a wiper motor leak is a pressurized one, the oil spray can be pushed to the fresh air intake ducts and run in. YES it is a highly improbable one but possible. There is a higher chance it will run out the cowl drain tubes, and you will loose all power steering function. I brought up the steering fluid thought to redirect that the coloured water substance not be red.
Also note that the control cable for the wiper motor enters through the cowl area at the centre and may allow fluid entry. BUT again very doubtful.

[paulr]

OK, Wally, ya got me. By that logic, it's equally possible that washer fluid could get in the crankcase when a rat chews through the bag, chug-a-lugs, hits the fan, and the spray gets sucked in through the air cleaner. Hey, it's POSSIBLE

[RAVEN]

I did say doubtful, and very improbable.

[paulr]

C'mon "down" here, Wally, and I'll buy ya a Labatts.

[cacockrum]

Paul’s rat-based explanation notwithstanding, and based on your description that water sprayed from under the dash and smoke (I suspect that it was water vapor) came out of the defroster vents, I agree that it is probably the heater core. The fact that the water from under the dash was brown is not too surprising since the steel components inside the heater box get rusty over time, so water from the heater core would contain some of the rust particles. I’m a bit surprised that you did not detect the presence of antifreeze when you examined the fluid. I don’t know that you would smell it, but it should feel slippery, unless there is not much antifreeze in the coolant, in which case it would be mostly water --- which could be a bit rusty.

In my experience, when a heater core develops a leak it starts out as a few drops of coolant dripping from the heater box, not as a sudden spray, but I suppose a large opening could suddenly appear so that pressure from the cooling system would cause it to spray out. I would start by rerouting the heater hoses to eliminate the heater core, and see if that eliminates the problem. If so, a new heater core is in order. One possible explanation for the sudden appearance of the problem is that a leak developed in one of the head gaskets such that the cooling system is being pressurized causing a weak joint to “blow”, although the radiator cap should limit the pressure. This should also cause coolant to flow out of the overflow tube on the overflow tank when the engine is turned off, and may or may not cause water to get into the engine oil. If that’s the problem, you might also hear an exhaust leak on one side of the engine, which would indicate which gasket is defective.

[PapaBird]

All right guys I took all advice and decided to rip the car apart since this past week end was the last big show of the year. First I took off the cowl and all is dry clean and rust free so no problems with the wiper motor. So next was to crawl inside the car remove passenger seat bottom part of the dash and low and behold heater core had a huge split in it and sprayed the fluid out the bottom. I wondered why it never dripped or showed any signs this spring and summer and I was also able to figure that out. My father in-law checked all fluids and tuned up the car before this show. He told me that the expansion tank was completely dry so he added some fluid to it. I'm thinking with the extra fluid added to it that it created more pressure a revealed the problem.

I did realize a second problem with the car after rereading your comments and found that the po dumped modern power steering fluid in the system.

[paulr]

Congratulations, detective! Feels good to get to the bottom of an issue. Wondering what exactly "Modern" power steering fluid is. Or, are you saying he put power steering fluid into the radiator???

I'm still curious as to the brown coloring of the coolant, now that we know it is, after all, coolant. Sounds like rust, I guess. If a core would rupture the way it did, it was pretty compromised by age and abuse. If you have a previous owner putting in reportedly wrong power steering fluid, what kind of fluid was he putting in the radiator? Should have been a little bit greenish?

[PapaBird]

Congratulations, detective! Feels good to get to the bottom of an issue. Wondering what exactly "Modern" power steering fluid is. Or, are you saying he put power steering fluid into the radiator???

I'm still curious as to the brown coloring of the coolant, now that we know it is, after all, coolant. Sounds like rust, I guess. If a core would rupture the way it did, it was pretty compromised by age and abuse. If you have a previous owner putting in reportedly wrong power steering fluid, what kind of fluid was he putting in the radiator? Should have been a little bit greenish?

I called it modern but its normal power steering fluid in the power steering reservoir instead of using the type F fluid. As soon as I figure what was put in the coolant i'll let you know.

[cacockrum]

I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but I think it would be good to determine why the expansion tank was low before getting too much further with the repairs. If working properly, the radiator cap should have kept the pressure in the cooling system from getting too high (if, for example, the expansion tank was overfilled), and should allow excess coolant to escape through the overflow tube rather than building up enough pressure to cause something to burst. Alternatively, if pressure is coming from another source, such as a small leak in the head gasket between the water jacket and an exhaust port, this pressure would also force coolant out of the overflow pipe, and eventually partially drain the radiator. If it were me, I would connect the two heater hose ends together with a short piece of pipe, refill the radiator, run the engine for a little while, and see if all was well before trusting that a new heater core and fresh mixture of antifreeze and DI water fixed the entire problem.

Paul’s question about what the PO may have put in the radiator brings up another possibility. I’m not sure how many different types of coolant are on the market today, but I do know that they are not mutually compatible, and can create a gooey mess if mixed which can clog the passageways in the radiator and heater core, and eventually cause serious overheating. Given this uncertainty, a thorough flush of the entire cooling system is in order.