Woes...

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stubbie
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Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:23 pm

Re: Woes...

Post by stubbie » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:37 am

That water pump looks wrong to me. That would explain the spacer on the alternator. Air cleaner looks like a 1960.
I had a similar problem on my 64. I had the wrong water pump someone had added all these spacers and bent brackets to fit. When i came to reinstall aircon nothing would match up correctly.

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paulr
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Re: Woes...

Post by paulr » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:21 am

DakotaLee wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:19 pm
sseebart wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:37 am
Just adding to JTSchug's notes--it appears you've got a new(er) water pump in there as well. The ones that come off the shelf these days are generic and really meant for motors that powered Ford pickups. I'd also take a look at the accessory mount points on the pump when checking and adjusting the belt alignment.

Good luck--let us know how it goes.

~Steve
Hey Steve!

So I got all the correct pulleys and brackets, only to have none of it fit. I'm assuming it's the water pump, so I'm ordering a proper one from birds nest. Is that the issue you were warning me about?
Thanks!
Not to clutter the conversation here...just adding that you're on the right track if the BN guys sent you a water pump for your model year. AC cars and non-AC cars share one water pump; mounting bosses are the same for either car. I'm using one (on my AC car) they sold me several years ago which was a good duplicate for the original.
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson

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sseebart
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Re: Woes...

Post by sseebart » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:42 am

DakotaLee wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:19 pm
Hey Steve!

So I got all the correct pulleys and brackets, only to have none of it fit. I'm assuming it's the water pump, so I'm ordering a proper one from birds nest. Is that the issue you were warning me about?
Thanks!
Well, probably. When I replaced mine years ago, the off-the-shelf replacement (made by Bosch) had a very different look from the original. On my non-A/C car, things lined up ok, but I was concerned enough that I held on to the old pump for years, just in case.

Here's what the new pump looked like. Never did get a photo of the old. As Paul noted, the Bird Nest part should work perfectly.
HPIM4357.jpg

DakotaLee
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Re: Woes...

Post by DakotaLee » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:06 pm

Okay, so we've made progress. We're exactly where we should be after the new water pump. The only thing I've noticed now- is that i only have the harmonic damper on the crank, and the single groove pulley on the water pump. My alternator isn't going to be able to wrap around both pulleys like the diagram in the shop manual suggests. (the alternator will only be linked to the water pump pulley) Do I have to find another crank pulley to go behind the damper? The shop manual also shows some illustrations of the damper being the only pulley on the crank, so maybe that's okay? Do any of you have that setup?
Thanks you guys!!! I will post photos once this is all taken care of! Real lifesavers here.
-Dak

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Alan H. Tast
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Re: Woes...

Post by Alan H. Tast » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:04 pm

I believe you have a '66, but I haven't seen in your posts/responses if you have literature that's available for your car.

Q1: Do you have the shop manual for your year of T-bird, i.e. 1966? If not, what year(s) are you referring to? (Your most-recent message indicates you have access to a shop manual but doesn't say if it's the one for your car.)
Q2: Do you have copies of the reprinted Assembly Manuals, including Electrical, Body/Trim/Sealer, and the 1966 Ford Engine Assembly Manual?
Q3: Do you have any Ford-produced drawings of the engine and accessories from parts catalogs? If so, from where?
Alan H. Tast, AIA
Technical Director/Past President,
Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l.
Author, "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years"
1963 Hardtop & 1963 Sports Roadster

stubbie
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Re: Woes...

Post by stubbie » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:43 pm

Looking at your pics from post 1 you have 2 grooves on the water pump pulley and 3 grooves on the crank?

DakotaLee
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Re: Woes...

Post by DakotaLee » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:58 am

stubbie wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:43 pm
Looking at your pics from post 1 you have 2 grooves on the water pump pulley and 3 grooves on the crank?
I bought a replacement single groove harmonic balancer from birds nest, and a single groove water pump crank. Now I'm stuck because I need a double groove crank pulley, but I can't find a place that sells them?? The single groove water pump pulley is too big for the current 3 groove crank pulley. This part doesn't show up anywhere!

Does anybody have a source for a double groove crank pulley? Do I return the harmonic balancer from birds nest?

REFERENCE - What I bought for the crank: http://www.parts123.com/parts123/dyndet ... uKeY=AABDF

jtschug
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Re: Woes...

Post by jtschug » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:56 am

If I recall correctly, cars without A/C have one belt groove on the balancer, then a second belt groove on a pulley that bolts in front of the balancer. So there are only single groove crank pullies and triple groove crank pullies. There are no double groove crank pullies.

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paulr
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Re: Woes...

Post by paulr » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:09 am

DakotaLee wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:58 am
stubbie wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:43 pm
Looking at your pics from post 1 you have 2 grooves on the water pump pulley and 3 grooves on the crank?
I bought a replacement single groove harmonic balancer from birds nest, and a single groove water pump crank. Now I'm stuck because I need a double groove crank pulley, but I can't find a place that sells them?? The single groove water pump pulley is too big for the current 3 groove crank pulley. This part doesn't show up anywhere!

Does anybody have a source for a double groove crank pulley? Do I return the harmonic balancer from birds nest?

REFERENCE - What I bought for the crank: http://www.parts123.com/parts123/dyndet ... uKeY=AABDF
This is starting to lose me. Why a new harmonic balancer? Did I miss something about a vibration issue? If you're planning to downsize your 3-groove crank to a 2-groove crank, why? This is not an issue. An empty groove will not affect balance or rotation. I do think if you pull your crank pulley and start over with some unknown sourced used part (not available new, and I don't think even exists) you will create your own fun balance issues, but hey, don't let me stand in the way. JMHO.
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson

DakotaLee
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Re: Woes...

Post by DakotaLee » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:43 am

paulr wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:09 am
DakotaLee wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:58 am
stubbie wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:43 pm
Looking at your pics from post 1 you have 2 grooves on the water pump pulley and 3 grooves on the crank?
I bought a replacement single groove harmonic balancer from birds nest, and a single groove water pump crank. Now I'm stuck because I need a double groove crank pulley, but I can't find a place that sells them?? The single groove water pump pulley is too big for the current 3 groove crank pulley. This part doesn't show up anywhere!

Does anybody have a source for a double groove crank pulley? Do I return the harmonic balancer from birds nest?

REFERENCE - What I bought for the crank: http://www.parts123.com/parts123/dyndet ... uKeY=AABDF
This is starting to lose me. Why a new harmonic balancer? Did I miss something about a vibration issue? If you're planning to downsize your 3-groove crank to a 2-groove crank, why? This is not an issue. An empty groove will not affect balance or rotation. I do think if you pull your crank pulley and start over with some unknown sourced used part (not available new, and I don't think even exists) you will create your own fun balance issues, but hey, don't let me stand in the way. JMHO.
The balancer was thrashed, so I needed a replacement.
The current pulley system on my car seems to be completely incorrect, and a stock single-groove water pump pulley doesn't even fit, because it is blocked by the crank pulleys on there right now.

jtschug
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Re: Woes...

Post by jtschug » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:32 pm

A single groove water pump pulley is correct for a non-A/C car. I think I have an extra one somewhere in my collection...

So, for a non-A/C car:

On the crank: One groove on the balancer plus one groove pulley that bolts to the front of the balancer
On the water pump: A single groove pulley
On the alternator: The belt closest to the engine goes over the water pump pulley
On the P/S pump: The belt goes directly from the bolt-on crank pulley to the pump pulley. It does NOT loop over the water pump.

If I knew how to upload pictures I could send you a snap shot.

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sseebart
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Re: Woes...

Post by sseebart » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:08 pm

Here's a couple of photos of my non-A/C '64, to illustrate:

From the passenger side: pulley on the balancer with a second pulley bolted to it:
IMG_20180816_110017.jpg
From the driver's side, you can see that the outer pulley drives the power steering pump, the inner drivers the water pump and alternator:
IMG_20180816_105844.jpg
~Steve
Attachments
IMG_20180816_110017.jpg

DakotaLee
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Re: Woes...

Post by DakotaLee » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:49 pm

Well today was a big day for me. I feel like I have self-induced sciatica, though I stand somewhat victorious.

I shelved the problem with the pulleys for now, and tackled remounting the alternator and P/S pump with all the correct gear. The crap that was on there wasn't even for a T-Bird. Now, I can spend some time finding the right pulley setup for the crank, then deal with it as a much smaller problem. I had to be a little creative with the alternator mounting, but I'll get around to a better system.

(try not to laugh to hard at the progress! And fear not, I am aware that my radiator isn't bolted down in the photos. :drinking: )
https://imgur.com/a/KbR7Jno
Thank you so much Steve, those photos do a great deal in helping me nail this down. I'll be referencing them for this.

DakotaLee
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Re: Woes...

Post by DakotaLee » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:25 pm

https://imgur.com/a/BYZUYv8

I just can't get these pulleys aligned. I got all the hardware, and the pump pulley still is off, and doesn't line up with the crank by about an inch, maybe more. I am fully out of ideas. I thought the correct mounting hardware would fix it, but nothing. It's just as bad if not worse off than before. No mechanics have been able to fix this either.

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paulr
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Re: Woes...

Post by paulr » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:39 pm

Viewing a photo for belt alignment is not as easy as being there--good photos, all the same. Looks like your PS belt is way out on the crank. Is that it? What did you end up with crank pulley-wise? Could you get a photo from below, shooting up? (I know, not easy).

I sympathize with this, champ, believe me. When I first bought my '64, though the setup is different from yours, my P.O. had improved it with cobbled parts from various year Tbirds, other Fords, even a (bleaahh!) Mopar washer pump. I had to source all the same bracket and idler issues you're dealing with. Thought I would lose my mind there for a few days, but it came together when I mapped it out in the manual and the Osborn diagrams. I just went for stock configuration and the thing fell into place. Yours will, too. Courage, man.
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson

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