Brakes self engage

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Terry64HT
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by Terry64HT » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:24 pm

I second Paul's post. I did exactly the same. The 73 Mustang master along with a few fittings is the way most have gone. I can post the Summit part numbers if anyone wants.
Terry 64HT

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paulr
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by paulr » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:30 pm

Terry, can this be done with the stock '64 cowl brace? Or, did you swap yours for a 65/66 curve, too?
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson

Terry64HT
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by Terry64HT » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:39 pm

You really have to swap it. The bail that holds down the master cylinder cover goes from front to back and there would not be enough room to flip it down to fill the bowls. Not only does the brace have a curve to it, but the bracket on the shock tower has a different angle to it and is bent up a bit. To replace the brace with a 65 or 66 you need both parts. The cap that goes over everything is the same as is the passenger side. So if you are shopping used (I think the only way they are available), you need both parts for the drivers side.
Terry
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RedBird64
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by RedBird64 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:31 pm

Another thing that can make them seem to self engage is if someone has adjusted the shaft for the MC a little too long. If it's too long, the pision in the MC will not retract enough to clear the little hole in the bore which keeps the shoes from retrating fully. As the brakes get warm from dragging, it gets worse and worse.
Learned this one the hard way!
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 41 years. It was my folks car before that (not orig owners). VTCI # 12013.

don.piotrek
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by don.piotrek » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:44 am

And what are your reasons behind changing to dual chamber MC? Is the difference THAT significant when braking/ stopping the car?
I am of the idea to keep the car as much stock/ factory original as possible. I consider it more a classic, a Sunday cruiser rather than daily driver.

I would like to get back to the original equipment and the single chamber/ single circuit. Browsing the internet, I could not find any new or used booster for the bird. Are these so prone to breaking?

Terry64HT
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by Terry64HT » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:18 am

Single master cylinder brake systems put all their eggs in one basket. If anything hydraulic fails, everything fails. I put a 69 Ford into the Ottawa River because a brake line was vibrating against the frame and wore through. Suddenly, five thousand pounds of angry chrome with no way to stop it.
My 64 is something I drive every chance I get, so upgrading to a dual system seemed a good idea.
As far a booster availability goes, I know rebuilt ones are available, although the supply is sporadic, many places will rebuild yours, and I see Pat Wilson is now saying that new ones will be in stock soon. So I think you have quite a few options.
Terry
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paulr
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by paulr » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:34 pm

don.piotrek wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:44 am
And what are your reasons behind changing to dual chamber MC? Is the difference THAT significant when braking/ stopping the car?
I'm not suggesting that the stopping power is increased; it's equal to. I think of what Terry correctly describes as having a back-up plan. I put on one or three thousand miles a year in the city (of steep hills), for the most part.
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson

don.piotrek
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by don.piotrek » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:11 am

Thanks guys. You got me convinced.
Anyway way better would be a proper good-quality conversion. What was exactly the one from Mustang you said fits best? Is it a '73 booster + dual MC? Do you have the parts numbers?

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paulr
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by paulr » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:17 am

don.piotrek wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:11 am
Thanks guys. You got me convinced.
Anyway way better would be a proper good-quality conversion. What was exactly the one from Mustang you said fits best? Is it a '73 booster + dual MC? Do you have the parts numbers?
Make no mistake. It's the OEM 64MY booster.
The master cylinder (sorry, I'm out of town, don't have the PN for it) is '73 Mustang, drum brake setup.
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson

Terry64HT
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by Terry64HT » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:31 am

Later today I'll dig out my paperwork and post a list of all the part numbers I used.
Terry
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Terry64HT
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by Terry64HT » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:53 pm

I dug up my old paperwork and here's the parts I used:
Master cylinder - 73 Mustang drum/drum Cardone 10-1488 rebuilt or 13-1488 new
I decided to make up short lines to adapt the master 1/2 and 9/16 fittings to the 3/8 fittings on the distribution blocks. I used original sized 3/16 lines throughout.
Everything else was bought from Summit
The distribution blocks were:
AAF-ALL-50137 which has 2 of 3/8x24 for the line in and out to the rear as well as a 1/8 NPT for the brake switch
HDT-LF-020 which has 3 of 3/8x24 for the line in and two out for the front brakes

The fittings were:
URR-BR-105 3/8x24 flare fitting
AAF-ALL50114 1/2x20 flare fitting for the front bowl (goes to the rear brakes)
AAF-AAL50115 9/16x18 flare fitting for the rear bowl (goes to the rear brakes)


I made up the short lines using copper nickle tubing because it's very easy to work with. You can sometimes find short lengths (12 to 16 inches) of 3/16 premade lines with 3/8 fittings on both ends. You only have to cut one end off and reflare with the larger fittings needed for the master.


That's about it. You shouldn't have to change the rod length and if your existing lines are in good shape you may be able to bend them to accommodate the new distribution blocks. In my case, the lines were the pits, so I replaced them (along with just about everything else), but that's another story.

Hope this helps
Terry
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RedBird64
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by RedBird64 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:07 pm

I think it pays to check the rod length. Having it too short by any amount will cost you baking power. There's a procedure in the manual for adjusting it and the instructions also work for the dual resvoir.
Be advised that if your brakes seem to be better than ever and have a nice high pedal after doing the conversion or after adjusting the rod, it's because the rod is too long.
1964 Coupe Wimbledon white/Rangoon Red w/black int. Owned for 41 years. It was my folks car before that (not orig owners). VTCI # 12013.

don.piotrek
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by don.piotrek » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:11 am

Thanks a lot Terry. Lots of helpful details.
I will look for a proper booster for the MY64, I think this will be the hardest part to find.

The lines and the '73 Mustang MC are in each and every online store.

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paulr
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Re: Brakes self engage

Post by paulr » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:21 pm

=don.piotrek post_id=98148 time=1536829919 user_id=6886
I will look for a proper booster for the MY64, I think this will be the hardest part to find
Best bet is to find a used unit—many available—in rebuildable condition and send it to Dewey in Oregon. You’d rather deal with a rebuilder than a reseller who says the part is rebuilt.
Paul
VTCI 12014
Registry 45122
'64 Landau
"Beer, now there's a temporary solution!" ~Homer Simpson

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