1964 Engine Original to Car?

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amtrakacela
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1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by amtrakacela » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:55 am

Howdy all! I just pulled the 390 from my 64 Hardtop and am trying to figure out whether or not my engine is original to the car (or at least get a good idea if it could be). The date on my VIN tag is 05F or June 5, 1964. From my research I have done on here and on other parts of the internet the date plates on the major components of the engine should of been made a few weeks before the VIN date code, however a majority of mine were made around a week to two weeks after the date on the VIN tag. The date on the block was 4F16 or June 16, 1964 and the exhaust manifolds have 4F12 and 4F11. The engine assembly date was 4F18. Since they were all made within a few weeks of the VIN date, I tend to believe that the engine may be original, however since the engine dates are all after the VIN date I am having some doubt since it seems that these dates should of been before the VIN date. I am a newbie to all this type of stuff so any help would be appreciated, thanks!
Dylan Angell
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sseebart
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Re: 1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by sseebart » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:39 pm

Check the manifolds (exhaust and intake) and heads for part numbers that begin with C4SE. If so, they are original Thunderbird parts (the "S" being the telltale). If they are, that info combined with the build date would lead me to believe that the engine is original to the car. My experience is that rebuilt replacement motors are cobbled together from whatever parts are on hand--getting matching build dates and part number codes so close would be unlikely.

Others may be able to shed more light on the car build date preceding the engine date, but I'm betting that such a thing is not outside the realm of possibility--given what I've read on here about factory practices.

Of course, it's always possible that someone pulled a motor from another 64 along the way and dropped it into yours, but without GM style matching numbers, it's a doubt common to us all.

On a related topic, did you pull the motor to do a rebuild? If so, keep us up to date--it's always nice to see another Bird under restoration.

~Steve

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amtrakacela
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Re: 1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by amtrakacela » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:38 pm

Thanks for the reply! And yes this motor is going to be rebuilt, stripping it down now to get ready for the machine shop (this is actually my first solo restoration, the last one being a father son project last year on a Fox Mustang). The casting numbers on my motor are all close, but only the intake manifold has a C4SE. The exhaust manifolds are C3SEs, the block is a C5AE, and the heads are C4AE's. Since all the build dates on these parts are in June 64 though and from what you said, I do believe this is probably the original engine now
Dylan Angell
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Alan H. Tast
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Re: 1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by Alan H. Tast » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:59 am

There are two critical pieces of documentation you'll want to attempt to locate. First is the car's ROT/build sheet. There are several places in a '65 that they were hidden, usually under the springs of one of the rear seat cushions, behind the vinyl flap inside the rear seat armrest cavity, and less likely under the front seat cushions or some other obscure place. The Schedule Date may be the same as on the data plate or a few days off. Second is to purchase the original or a copy of the car's gate release from Marti Auto Works. The gate release will have the date the car was invoiced/ordered and when it was released for shipping. More than likely, the gate release will probably show the car shipping out after the 18th of June.

It very well could be that the original schedule date and its release date differed due to several factors, including being held back for repairs during the final assembly and inspection process. It wasn't uncommon for a car to get almost all the way to the end of the line and be pulled out because it was determined there was a problem with a portion of the drivetrain like the engine. Sometimes engines got swapped out rather than repair them, and this could be a possibility. It also could be that the car was delayed in production because of a shortage of a certain accessory or option that was ordered, the need to delay production due to an invoicing or order issue. Having the additional documentation may yield some interesting answers.

At least you checked the assembly date stamp and the casting date for the engine block, which should be located near the oil filter adapter assembly on the lower pan rail of the block. C5AE for a block casting prefix indicates that you have a '65 block with a casting date of June 16 and an assembly date of June 18, which are approximately two weeks after scheduled build date. it well could be that the changeover in casting cores from '64 to '65 engineering changes may have already taken place. The only way to confirm this, aside from checking the block casting date against other engine components, is to document other cars built before and after yours and what their block casting codes are. C3SE exhaust manifolds are correct for a '64.
Alan H. Tast, AIA
Technical Director/Past President,
Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l.
Author, "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years"
1963 Hardtop & 1963 Sports Roadster

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amtrakacela
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Re: 1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by amtrakacela » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:46 pm

Thanks for the info! Unfortunately my car's build sheet is missing, but I am definitely going to get the gate release sheet from Marti Auto Works. On a side note my car came with paint code C, or Gray Metallic. According to the data plate information sheet posted at the top of this forum that was a color for Lincoln Continentals and were only available on Tbirds by special order. I wonder if the special order paint could of delayed it?
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Alan H. Tast
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Re: 1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by Alan H. Tast » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:30 pm

amtrakacela wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:46 pm
Thanks for the info! Unfortunately my car's build sheet is missing, but I am definitely going to get the gate release sheet from Marti Auto Works. On a side note my car came with paint code C, or Gray Metallic. According to the data plate information sheet posted at the top of this forum that was a color for Lincoln Continentals and were only available on Tbirds by special order. I wonder if the special order paint could of delayed it?
YES!
Alan H. Tast, AIA
Technical Director/Past President,
Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l.
Author, "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years"
1963 Hardtop & 1963 Sports Roadster

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Re: 1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by sseebart » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:10 pm

amtrakacela wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:46 pm
Thanks for the info! Unfortunately my car's build sheet is missing, but I am definitely going to get the gate release sheet from Marti Auto Works. On a side note my car came with paint code C, or Gray Metallic. According to the data plate information sheet posted at the top of this forum that was a color for Lincoln Continentals and were only available on Tbirds by special order. I wonder if the special order paint could of delayed it?
I'll bet the car looked pretty sharp in gray metallic. Has it been resprayed? If not, would love to see a photo.

~Steve

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amtrakacela
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Re: 1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by amtrakacela » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:51 pm

Yep I would of loved to see it in its original color! Unfortunately it looks like it got painted over many years ago into a light blue, not a trace of the gray left other then in some small areas
Dylan Angell
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Re: 1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by sseebart » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:46 pm

Ah, too bad. I did find a photo of a Lincoln in this color.
8489536-1964-lincoln-continental-convertable-std.jpg
Sharp. One of the few cars I would trade in the T-Bird for . . .

~Steve

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60fore
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Re: 1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by 60fore » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:20 am

My '64 was also a paint code C car. It had been repainted several times by the time it found its way to me, but traces of the original paint could be seen in the trunk.

I believe the color was called Princeton Gray when used in the Lincoln line.
Currently Birdless....we'll see how long that lasts!

Past Birds: 1962 Hardtop Corinthian White "The Survivor"
1964 Hardtop Gunmetal Gray "60Fore"
1986 Turbo Coupe Regatta Blue

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Re: 1964 Engine Original to Car?

Post by tmjsong1aolcom » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:53 pm

Code C was a mid year introduction paint option for the 64 bird. It started life as noted on The Lincoln.

As for the block I missed what the assembly code for the engine was. It is located on the piece of metal that sticks out from the block just above the dip stick. Many times it is painted over and will need to be cleaned to see it. Based on your engine parts is seems like I would revisit the block and find the casting date. Don't remember on the 64 if it located near the part number or below the oil filter adapter.

Might I ask what are the warranty number and the top row of numbers above the warranty/vin number. Would love to in clude the info in the 64 data base.

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