Exhaust Manifold Woes

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stevegintn
Posts: 528
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:33 pm

Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by stevegintn » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:44 pm

OK, my luck ran out today - today's project was to try to replace a bad exhaust manifold gasket, on one side only.

We got the 4 lower bolts loose, but 2 of the 4 on top snapped off (and had to loosen a motor mount and jack up the engine, just to get a socket on those).

Is there any recovery, short of pulling the engine? (and if I do that, may as well go for a rebuild or replace - there goes my insurance money for paint & body)

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Steve G.
'62 TBird HT
'61 TBird HT (parts car)
'02 Sportrac 4x4
'49 Ford 8N

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Alan H. Tast
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by Alan H. Tast » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:27 pm

stevegintn wrote:OK, my luck ran out today - today's project was to try to replace a bad exhaust manifold gasket, on one side only.

We got the 4 lower bolts loose, but 2 of the 4 on top snapped off (and had to loosen a motor mount and jack up the engine, just to get a socket on those).

Is there any recovery, short of pulling the engine? (and if I do that, may as well go for a rebuild or replace - there goes my insurance money for paint & body)

Image
Disassemble the top end - remove the carburetor and unhook the linkages, yank the distributor, take off the valve covers, remove the rocker arm assemblies, pull the push rods, remove the intake manifold, unbolt the exhaust pipe and remove the cylinder head. This is major 'scope creep' but unavoidable at this stage. And if you're replacing the other side's gasket/heat shield, try soaking the bolts with a high-quality penetrating oil and work them loose.

I'm currently attempting to prep the passenger side manifold on my '63 for removal and am holding my breath that the top bolts will come out without snapping the heads off. A restoration shop that's local to me recommends using Kano Labs' AeroKroil http://www.kanolabs.com/ and soaking them before I take it to them. I just got a spray bomb of the stuff along with a second one for free as a first-time trial offer direct from the manufacturer, but it cost about $20 for an industrial-sized can plus the "freebie" (I got the same stuff but with silicone in it) and $17 for shipping from Nashville, TN. If you can find it locally or order through another on-line source that won't rape you for shipping, get it - stupid me should communicate with my wife more as I could have used her free shipping through Amazon Prime :shock: .
Alan H. Tast, AIA
Technical Director/Past President,
Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l.
Author, "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years"
1963 Hardtop & 1963 Sports Roadster

RAVEN
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by RAVEN » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:29 pm

Never say never.
First off, where did the bolts break? Did you crack or break the bolt mount "Ears" of the heads or just the bolts themselves?
If the bolts only, then you may be in luck with patience and penetrate oil and heat, and an angle drill.
Understand that, if you had a manifold leak which is old and on going, then a new seal may never work, without machining the heads. Plus removing the seized broken bolts can add to the stress, and ultimately head removal. (the cars' not yours)
Many factors need to be added up on your next move, from your ability to do it, to how much you wish to spend, to how much time you have.
In years past, an angle drill and lots of heat and oil, solved my problem same as yours; but patience and a "kids" determination to prove it could be done, got me through it. ARE YOU in the same boat?
Only you know, what you will endure.
Good luck and will wait your answer, of your winning the battle.

Wally K
CDN Member since 1975 #2086
Flock: 1964 Landau Original Family Owned
1964 Sr Convertible "RAVEN"
Past: 2003 Blk Lab "RAVEN" "RIP"Nov 15/17
1964 Lincoln vin4Y86N00007
1964 Red Convertible

stevegintn
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by stevegintn » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:38 pm

Thanks, guys! - Alan, your fix sounds like a top-end overhaul (which it prob needs, anyway?). If I have to do all that, I may as well get the engine rebuilt?

RAVEN, the 2 bolts broke off just below the bolt heads (maybe 1/8 in. remaining?). But you may be right, about all the other 'gotchas'?

But I am really thinking about finding an engine rebuilder, which would solve several problems. Going tomorrow to visit a couple local shops.
Steve G.
'62 TBird HT
'61 TBird HT (parts car)
'02 Sportrac 4x4
'49 Ford 8N

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BobHH
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by BobHH » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:04 pm

Well let me jump in on this too. Been there, done this. If you have 1/8 inch of bolt nub left same as me. I jacked engine up, removed the manifold, cleaned up the bolt nub and welded another nut to the top of the bolt nub. As Alan said soak it in good penetrating oil several times. Try rocking the now welded nut with a wrench to see if it comes loose. If not try heating it with a torch. I used a propane torch from Lowes. With time and patience I got all 3 of mine out. Chase the threads with a tap and re-install bolts with high temperature antiseize.
Bob Harris
Strange 1962 Thunderbird SR?

jrfjr
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by jrfjr » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:34 pm

Disassemble the top end - remove the carburetor and unhook the linkages, yank the distributor, take off the valve covers, remove the rocker arm assemblies, pull the push rods, remove the intake manifold, unbolt the exhaust pipe and remove the cylinder head. This is major 'scope creep' but unavoidable at this stage. And if you're replacing the other side's gasket/heat shield, try soaking the bolts with a high-quality penetrating oil and work them loose.

I'm currently attempting to prep the passenger side manifold on my '63 for removal and am holding my breath that the top bolts will come out without snapping the heads off. A restoration shop that's local to me recommends using Kano Labs' AeroKroil http://www.kanolabs.com/ and soaking them before I take it to them. I just got a spray bomb of the stuff along with a second one for free as a first-time trial offer direct from the manufacturer, but it cost about $20 for an industrial-sized can plus the "freebie" (I got the same stuff but with silicone in it) and $17 for shipping from Nashville, TN. If you can find it locally or order through another on-line source that won't rape you for shipping, get it - stupid me should communicate with my wife more as I could have used her free shipping through Amazon Prime :shock: .
Yeah, what he said. I will add that if you do disassemble the top end, and plan on re-using the rocker arms and pushrods, etc, be sure to label where they went, so the parts go back together in their old positions. AeroKroil is great stuff, and IMO a lot better than WD40. I've also heard of guys making a concoction of ATF and acetone (50/50, I think-but Google it!), and it is supposed to be great penetrating oil. It has a nickname (but I can't remember what it is right now :???: ). GL, Jim
Jim
'63 Landau, Corinthian White w/white vinyl top, red interior
VTCI #12527

Cliff Rankin
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by Cliff Rankin » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:30 pm

I have been there too. Mine were in horrible shape on the 63.
Pretty much all broken. I agree with the other try's first. I yanked my motor and put it on the stand & my old boss self proclaimed pro welder got
Every one out without drilling. Even the ones broke smooth at the head. He used the stick welder not the mig. I got a box of 3/8 nuts.
He spent several hours and a box of nuts. Got
Every one out. Who knows how long they were
Broke. But l was dum founded. I hate
Trying to drill and tap old stuff. But I did drill
1 on my 64 last week with a right angle drill
Instead of pulling the motor. But that was only 1.
He said something about steel will always come loose from cast iron with patience.
I feel your pain!

tbird
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by tbird » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:41 pm

I have been there also.
Firstly as has been said soak every bolt with a good penetrating oil Areo Kroil is said to be the only thing to use by some it is 28.00 for a 12 oz. spray can here and hard to find, I have never had success with it. Have tried the ATF and Acetone with mixed results PB Blaster about the same, whatever you use let it sit for a day or two some heat on the bolts also will help then add more penetrating oil while it is still hot may help to suck it in as it cools.

When you are ready to give them a try do not use the biggest wench that you have on a 3/8" bolt, I would start with a 3/8" drive ratchet and tighten the bolt first if you can move it a fraction of a turn then try to back it up a fraction continue this and add more lubricant you will find that the stroke gets longer as you work. Taking a 18-27" 1/2' drive breaker bar and maybe adding a piece of pipe to it will only break a small diameter bolt.

If you do break a bolt and it has a stick out of 3/8" or more do as Cliff recommended, Plug weld a 3/8 or better would be a 7/16' nut slid over the bolt shank flat against the head use a 3/32" rod and start the weld on the bolt shank move quickly in a circle until the weld puddle reaches the nut then fill the hole until it is level with the nut. You may find you do not even need a wrench to remove the bolt after the welding operation I have found on a number of occasions that the shock of the instant heat from the arc welder and the cool down of a spray with more oil breaks the rust welding them in to the head.

I no longer have my arc welder so I use the mig welder with .023 hard wire and lots of heat does the job.
Jim Mills
VTCI # 8071
VTCI 1964-66 Technical Editor
2002 Thunderbird
1965 Convertible
1962 Convertible (in progress)
1959 Ford Retractable HT
Many parts cars

stevegintn
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by stevegintn » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:10 am

OK, thanks guys - I would have never thought of the weld-a-bolt method (I don't weld, but I have a buddy who does :mrgreen: )

We used a 3/8 drive socket on the 9/16 bolts, which easily loosened the four on the bottom, but snapped the two on top right off.

But as I said, I may just go for an engine pull and rebuild - going to check out a local shop today (phone estimate is $2850, turnkey, and 3 weeks turnaround - which doesn't sound bad?)
Steve G.
'62 TBird HT
'61 TBird HT (parts car)
'02 Sportrac 4x4
'49 Ford 8N

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60fore
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by 60fore » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:56 pm

Has anybody tried Loctite Freeze & Release for stubborn fasteners?

https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-996456-C ... op?ie=UTF8
Currently Birdless....we'll see how long that lasts!

Past Birds: 1962 Hardtop Corinthian White "The Survivor"
1964 Hardtop Gunmetal Gray "60Fore"
1986 Turbo Coupe Regatta Blue

RAVEN
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by RAVEN » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:33 pm

Never tried the Loctite product, but have done the same thermal shock method on seized bolts and/or shaft related assemblies. The method used was to heat a shaft/assembly/bolt with a torch till quite warm, then quickly hit the problem area with a CO2 fire ext. Walla THERMAL SHOCK. Sometimes worked some times not.
In Stevegintn's case, do to age and corrosion the bolts in essence dissolved into powder (iron oxide) (rust). and shrunk in diameter to nothing. Short of pulling the heads, an angle drill and tapping the remains is about the only way to go. This is where PATIENCE is the offensive team. Thermal shock works well on solid items but is virtually of no use with "rust'
The "weld a bolt" method is a good way to go if the base material is solid, it also provides a thermal shock type of application.

My 2 cents and we do not have pennies any more in Canada.

Good luck with your problem, keep us posted.
CDN Member since 1975 #2086
Flock: 1964 Landau Original Family Owned
1964 Sr Convertible "RAVEN"
Past: 2003 Blk Lab "RAVEN" "RIP"Nov 15/17
1964 Lincoln vin4Y86N00007
1964 Red Convertible

stevegintn
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Woes

Post by stevegintn » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:23 am

OK, I've found a good shop and reasonable cost - so off she goes for a rebuild on Monday!

Keep your fingers crossed!
Steve G.
'62 TBird HT
'61 TBird HT (parts car)
'02 Sportrac 4x4
'49 Ford 8N

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