Front end braking shudder

[Karl]

G'day.
For your shoes, by getting a longer adjusting cable this will make the lever lower and make the adjusting part worse. You need a shorter cable.
If you have a look at the other thread with photo's of the longer shoe, these are easily identifiable by the extra hole in the bottom. If you take your shoes and exchange them for re-bonded one's that are longer, your self adjusting hardware will work fine. However this is only if the threads and the star wheel and the cable are in good condition. If the threads don't turn freely you can clean them up with a tap and die but you will need a right hand 7/16" bottoming tap and right hand die and also a left hand bottoming tap, and left hand die.

I purchased some new 1/8" steel cable and replaced some frayed one's by silver soldering the new cable in. The old cable is easily removed by using a cold chisel as a wedge to open the swaged part of the Hook and Eye apart. on the other hand if your cable is in good condition you can shorten the cable by undoing one end, pushing the end on further on the cable and then silver soldering it back together. I made up a jig to make this job easier.

In my opinion the spring doesn't do anything to the height of the lever, all it is there for is to pull the lever back and rotate the star wheel. If it hasn't got enough tension then obviously it is not going to do the job. If it has got to much tension then all it will do is make it harder to fit the lever to the shoe. Read the manual as to how to apply the self adjusting parts.
The spring that you have on your car looks different to the ones that I have purchased with the kits. The end of the spring where it goes into the shoe to be anchored is just hooked over the web of the shoe, The ones that you get in the kits have a leg on the end that goes into the web. Yours may be an original. I would like to have the measurements of your spring. According to the master parts catalog, the spring should be 49/64" in dia, 3 13/32" long and I believe this to be measured on the working parts of the spring. ie from inside the hooks, to, if it has the leg then the side of the leg that does the holding. And it should have 21 1/2 coils and the original springs were red.

Now you can buy new adjusting kits but in my mind they are rubbish, unless they are the old type of adjusters that were available before the metric one's came onto the market. The new one's have a metric thread on them and this is smaller than the 7/16" as on the original. I don't know whether this will have the same effect of over adjusting or under adjusting as the thread pitch is different. They are also smaller in dia so will this adjuster have enough strength to hold the shoes apart under heavy braking. Also the profile of the new adjusters is different.

Looking at your first photo there is no wear on the top part of the shoes where the wheel cylinder is, I suppose this would be consistent with low mileage, however the bottom parts of the shoes are worn as if the shoes are over-adjusted.

Karl.

[hemicharger69]

Karl,

Thank you for the detailed info.

I now think the brake has been over-adjusting leading to hot/cold spots on the drum on the passenger. I noticed the inner rim of the drum had blue-ish polished spots. Why wouldn't I have the same issue on the driver side? Or, maybe I am but it's just not as apparent?

What about drilling a lower hole into the brake shoe to accommodate for the longer cable? If that doesn't work I will do as you suggested and shorten the adjuster cable.

I would go out and buy the right longer shoe or shorted adjusting cable, but it seems like a roll of the dice what I'll get. Ebay and online don't seem to specify the dimensions in detail.

Perhaps it would help me if I understood how the whole thing is supposed to work. When I pull on the adjuster cable the adjuster tang engages with the adjuster star and spreads the brake shoes apart. What prevents the adjuster from continuing spread the shoes apart? Conversely, what causes the adjuster to continue to spread shoes apart, if the shoes are already rubbing against the drum? Wouldn't that close clearance between the shoes and the drum prevent the adjusting arm from rising and falling and continuing to spread the shoes apart?

Thanks,

Allen

[Karl]

G'day Allan.
When you drive the car forward and you apply the brakes the shoes tend to wrap around the drum and want to rotate with the drum. The anchor pin stops them from doing this. If you go in reverse and there is some wear in the shoe linings then the shoes will tend to rotate in a reverse motion, if there is sufficient movement this will pull on the adjuster cable. In pulling on the cable the lever is pulled upward moving it over the star wheel, if there is enough movement then the lever will click over the next tab of the star wheel. when you then go forward again the shoes rotate in the forward direction and the cable releases on the lever letting the spring pull the lever downwards rotating the adjuster screw and adjusting the shoes.
I don't know how much movement is needed, Like you I have pulled on the cable and seen the star wheel rotate. How much slack is needed I don't know. If the lever is low or high in relation of movement of the star wheel I don't know. All I know is what the manual states 3/16".
I have however installed various cables, guides and levers from different origins, and have different outcomes for the lever height, some only very slight. Over the years with different suppliers and tooling the lever height is different.
For you it may just well be that the height is enough to make one side for the shoes stay over adjusted and the other side be OK, I don't know.

About drilling a new hole I would advise against this. As you can see the hole is quite large and to drill another hole would be to far away. You would only need a very small distance on the lever where it hooks over the web of the shoe to change the height of the lever in relation to the star wheel.

As far as the images on the internet are the photo's show on style of shoe, what you get is totally different.

The ideal way to having the brakes repaired is to have drums machined and to have the new shoes radius to suit the new drum. You then have shoes that are the same diameter as the drums so the surface area of contact is the greatest. Do you have a local shop that can re-bond the shoes and do the drums?

All this may seem overwhelming but once you understand how they work it is not that bad.

Just a added note is that I am by no means a mechanic, I have a car the same as you with a similar problem, I have spent some considerable time trying to solve this, and reading the manual and Master Parts Catalog come up with a solution.

Karl.

[hemicharger69]

Karl,

That helps tremendously.

One thing is still unclear to me. What mechanism causes the brakes shoes to recede from the drum if over adjusted? The adjusting lever pushes the shoes wider apart only, right? When the vehicle brakes moving forward, the adjusting lever doesn't move the star wheel upward bringing the shoes closer together, does it?

[Karl]

That is correct, it only makes the shoes wider.
There is no mechanism to undo the adjusting process.
Only if you get under the car and manually undo the star wheel by inserting a screwdriver or the adjusting tool in the slot at the back of the backing plate. At the same time as you adjust the star wheel you have to hold the lever away from the star wheel so the wheel can turn. This is done with another small screwdriver or pointed tool. It sounds hard and seems to be difficult because you can't see what you are doing, but once you perfect the technique it is quite easy.
Karl.

[hemicharger69]

Instead of shortening the adjusting cable 3/16", could I file the adjusting arm edge so that it engages the star wheel just a few teeth higher? This way, the adjusting lever doesn't spread the shoes out as far?

[Karl]

G'day Allan.
To adjust the cable so the lever is at the right distance may not be 3/16" it could be more or less because of the angle of the lever.
With regard the filing the lever, that is possible, the levers are readily available and are a disposable part. You may find that if the lever is to low it may not have enough straight metal left to operate the star wheel properly.



Also have a look at where the star wheel is located in relation to the hole in the backing plate. What I found was that because the shoes are shorter the star wheel is right on the edge of the hole if not past the hole which will make manual adjusting from the back very difficult.
In the image above I made my own socket up that goes on the end of the adjusting screw, this positions the star wheel in the correct location. The nut on the other end is a longer one that was made by Ford, this way the nut and screw are done up so you don't have the problem of the screw and nut falling apart.
I have a adjusting screw, nut and socket that are longer then the generic ones that are available, it was made by Ford so you may be able to source a couple from a wreaking yard. Keep in mind you may have the same problem with the back wheels.
In the image below is one of the generic adjusters that was on my car, it wound apart so much that it nearly fell apart.


The easiest way would be to obtain a set of shoes that are longer (the shoes with the extra hole in the bottom). Are you close to a vendor or brake shop that would have some Ford shoes? All you have to do then is have them re-bonded and the parts that you have will work better.

Karl.

[hemicharger69]

This weekend, I filed down the adjuster lever. The height between the edge of the adjusting arm and the star wheel was approximately 3/16". To test, I tensioned the adjusting cable and the adjusting arm 'clicked' once every time. Same on both sides. Sorry I didn't take pictures. I was anxious to get the car on the road and on to my next repair. (rear bumpers).

Now the brakes feel softer than before. I need twice as much stopping distance if not more. There's no bite. I did adjust the star wheel a few clicks after the brake job until I started hearing a little shoe rub while spinning the wheels off the ground. The brakes do not go all the way to the floor even after continuous pressure.

Could it be grease and oil on shoes and drum? Doesn't that residue just burn away after a few stops? I've already driven the car approximately 30 miles highway and the brakes are definitely not as powerful as they used to be. I know I could have cleaned up braking surfaces better, but as I said I was anxious to get moving.

By the way, the brake shudder is gone entirerly. However, this could be because the brake shoes are not yet self-adjusted completely.

I will post pictures if I need to go back in there.

[Joe Johnston]

Grease and oil on any braking contact surface must be avoided. I wash everything with lacquer thinner, then a spray "Brake Clean" type of product and never even touch these surfaces after cleaning. Minimal amounts of oil may burn away but more often than not will cause problems. Pads or linings that are saturated with oil just need to be replaced as they aren't salvageable and certainly not worth the risk of using.

[Karl]

G'day,
Did you replace the shoes and have the drums machined, or did you just use all the old parts?
If you removed the shoes from the backing plates and did not replace them as they were, you may have the shoes back to front and what was on the left hand side is now on the right. Primary shoe to the front and secondary shoe to the rear. This may account for the soft brakes as the shoes may not have 100% surface contact.
You should be able to lock the brakes up, can you do this?
As far as oil on the shoes I have seen people pouring petrol on oil soaked shoes and setting them on fire to try and burn the oil away. This never works, you have to re-line the shoes. Also if the fire is to hot you may very well change the strength of the metal.
As far as your shoes go in your last photo the shoes didn't look like they had oil on them all though I can't see the shoe themselves.

I was told by a old truck driver many years ago, when doing the brakes if the shoes are worn down replace the set and machine the drum to the radius of the new shoes. Whatever you do to one side you have to do the same to the other. Don't cut corners.

Karl.

[hemicharger69]

There's a good amount of axle grease on braking surfaces. I thought it would burn away. I will take apart (again) and clean thoroughly. I will post pictures this time.

Brake shoes never came off the backing plate as I worked only the adjusting mechanisms.

Brake shoes have no more than 2000 miles. There is abnormal wear on the lower primary passenger side due to that side over adjusting. Rest of the brake shoes have plenty of life.

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

Took '61 to a reputable restoration shop. Here's what we learned:

1) Drums that were turned by general automotive shop were not in round. Restorer sent them to a specialist and came back round.
2) Shoes/linings did not fit properly to the drum. Right lining was cracked due to all the excessive heat created by the faulty drum.
3) As a pre-caution, I replaced the inner and outer wheel bearings of both front wheels, re-packed properly.

Result: no pull to either side. Brakes very effective. Strut bushings do not appear to be getting chewed up.

Next Step: Proper front end alignment should do the trick. needs a toe-in, and currently there is a slight drift to the left, but all correctable.

So after everything I did to rebuild the brakes, it came down to a shop who didn't check the round after they turned my drums. In speaking with the restoration shop, the root cause of the issue was the drum(s) out of round, and the generic brake shoes not flitting properly into the drum.

[jrfjr]

Geoff,

It sounds like they also arced the shoes to fit the drums. The repair shop where I worked while going to college (mid '70's) always had this guy come by who's business was (I think) called "ABC Mobile Brake" (This service has probably long gone). He had the proper machinery in his van, and a lot of parts, and all he did was turn drums and rotors, then arc the new brake shoes to fit the drums. We always installed matched parts, and never had any issues.

BTW (Do not do this!), the first thing we did once the car was on the lift, and the drums removed was to take an air hose, and blow off all of the brake dust! That was before asbestos was considered dangerous, but I guess since I'm still here, I didn't ingest too much! Sounds incredibly stupid and irresponsible now, but back in the day...

Until reading this and other posts about the parts folks seem to be getting these days, I was completely unaware of the differences in allegedly identical and correct parts, and also their quality control issues-but I'm not surprised! This just became very apparent to me while replacing the calipers on my '98 Ford Contour. It took a total of TWO trips to Autozone to get the correct calipers (I stupidly bought them before removing them), and to then a THIRD trip to exchange one because the tapped hole where the hose screws in was stripped.

I need to do the brakes on my '63, so at least now I know what to watch for. It's been a real surprise to me to hear about all of the trouble folks have been having rebuilding their T-Bird brakes. Now, I'm beginning to understand why. I'm glad you got this sorted. Jim

[GeoffInCarlsbad]

Yes, it just amazed me that I kept going through the rebuild, to the point of replacing even the master cylinder, putting trust in the shop to round the front drums properly.

Arcing the shoes I am sure helped too, but most shops in CA won't do that any more. So taking it to a restoration shop where all they do is work on vehicles with drum brakes was the only way to go. And guess what, they were no more expensive than the general repair shops.

If I could have had those tools in my garage, it never would have been an issue, but....I can't so......

Lesson learned: Check the round of the drums, and try to find OE compatible materials, where possible.

[Karl]

G'day Allan,
If I was going to pull the wheels of my car to clean up the brakes, I would cut my losses and change the shoes and have the drums machined. even though you have plenty of meat on the top of the shoes you will never get proper contact with the drum and your braking will be not as good. With regards to the axle grease on the linings, if there is a lot of grease these will have to be replaced anyway.
To me it is not worth cutting corners on the brakes for your own safety plus other road users.

Geoff,
I too have learned a lot since doing my brakes. The hardest part is to find somebody that knows what they are doing, Oh yeah they all say I can do it but when it comes down the the job they haven't got a clue. I took my car to a brake shop once, an old guy, I don't think he had seen a Thunderbird seeing that they were not a general imported car. when he pulled the wheel cover off he said that I had the wrong rims on the car. I thought to myself he knows what he is talking about. He taught me a lot about the brakes, I went to see him the other day and he has closed his shop and I can't find where he has gone.
So over the last couple of years I have made up tools to rivet the new drums to the hub using the wheel stud as was done in the day, I have a lathe and made up arbors to machine the drums front and rear. all I want now is to find a radius machine and I will be able to radius the new shoes.
Karl.