Water pump spacer A-432

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CSPIDY
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Water pump spacer A-432

Post by CSPIDY »

I had the pleasure to meet Chris Ames from Arizona, he has been working on a mod to the water pump spacer. I was speaking to him and described where I am at with my cooling issues, which is a tendency for the water temp to drift towards the hot end when ever I am sitting at red lights.
Currently I am running the CASCO dual impeller water pump, the wide mouth 170 degree thermostat and plugged the by-pass.
He showed me his design of the spacer that provides a ramp where the water exits the pump into the engine. The original spacer has a 90 degree wall. If you have access to the January-February issue of the CTCI Early Bird magazine he has an extensive artical about his research design and test of his spacer. To sum up, the with the original spacer there is no flow when idling at 600 RPM, his has no flow at about 500 RPM.
He will be at the CTCI convention in NJ if anyone is attending.
I will be installing his spacer and will report back with the results.
Stay cool
Dave

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57 D code Colonial White


Wise man once told me, "you don't know what you don't know"

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paul2748
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by paul2748 »

I have bought one of Chris's spacers and will be installing it soon. While generally I don't have a heating issue, I want to try it.

See you at the NJ convention.
1956 Fiesta Red 312
1954 Ford Victoria 312
1948 Ford Convertible Street Rod 302
bammer
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by bammer »

Relatively new to the T-bird world, had a couple questions about the cooling issues. I'm in the process of changing the water pump on my '57, the car has not run in about 25 years. Been reading the posts about going to the high flow pump and the wide mouth thermostat. Was wondering if CASCO is the only distributor that sells those items. Am now curious about this spacer which I know nothing about. Can you tell me where I can order one. Also am confused about the bypass, where it is located and how to plug it. I took the radiator out, thinking I will flush it out real good then reinstall it.....thanks for any advice, Byron
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by CSPIDY »

The water pump with the dual impellor is made by CASCO, you can send them your old pump and have it modified. I don't know anyone else that sells it. This set up made a huge difference with my car. But still gets hot at stop lights.
The by-pass is located just above the water pump, a small hose on a fitting attached to the water pump. I cut a large bolt using the solid shank end and drilled a 1/8 hole in it. stuffed into the hose then added a third clamp to keep in place. this will force most of the water through the engine and not by-pass it.

Chris's email is christopherames@q.com
57 D code Colonial White


Wise man once told me, "you don't know what you don't know"

West Newton, PA
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paul2748
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by paul2748 »

For the wide mouth thermostat, there are a number of options.

Mr Gasket #4367 (For a Chrysler product
Stant 14177
NAPA # 6 (THM6)
Moto Rad 320-170

I'm using the NAPA unit, but have the Stant and Moto-Rad as spares.
1956 Fiesta Red 312
1954 Ford Victoria 312
1948 Ford Convertible Street Rod 302
1957Birdman
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by 1957Birdman »

I am in the process of installing the new spacer on my '57 312 T-Bird. I have installed an aluminum radiator and a 6 blade fan. I have driven in numerous parades over the years and my experience has been that although the car does not overheat the temperature always rises to the upper end of the white line and the engine idles rough. I am scheduled to drive in the Independence Day Parade in DC and the temperatures are supposed to be in the low 92s. It will be a good test. Anyway, I will give a report here of my experience and the benefit of the new spacer. No matter what, I think Chris Ames has put his finger on a problem that has existed since these cars were new.
Regards,
Lew Bachman
1957 Colonial White
Joe Johnston
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by Joe Johnston »

Moderator note: Original post was modified July 1, 2017 at CSPIDY's request. J
PLEASE invest a few bucks and buy all the shop manuals for your car. Definitely will save you much time and be an education.

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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by CSPIDY »

Joe,
thanks for the help with this post, as I said this may be the best improvement for the TBird in 60 years.
Dave
57 D code Colonial White


Wise man once told me, "you don't know what you don't know"

West Newton, PA
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by CSPIDY »

With the new spacer installed I drove in stop and go traffic with many stop lights and slow moving traffic the temp pretty much stayed at the high end of the white band. OAT, 88 degrees f with sun baking down. Before it would have crept past the end of the white band towards the H. Especially when sitting at lights. The spacer plus the high flow water pump with the wide mouth thermostat and plugged by-pass has made the car drivable on hot days. So far so good.
57 D code Colonial White


Wise man once told me, "you don't know what you don't know"

West Newton, PA
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by CSPIDY »

Drove the bird again yesterday, 90 degrees OAT, drove at rush hour in heavy traffic and some very long traffic lights. The temp would go past the end of the white arc but never when all the way to the "H" on the temp gauge. When I arrived at my destination I measured the engine temp with a temp gun, the temp at the water temp probe was 188 degrees f, at the thermostat it was 207 and 194 at the water pump inlet. It would appear that even though the water is flowing at low engine speeds the original radiator is not transferring the heat well enough to keep the engine cool. I had the radiator flushed and tested last year and there are electric fans that kick on at 190 degrees.
What do you guys think?
57 D code Colonial White


Wise man once told me, "you don't know what you don't know"

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1957Birdman
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by 1957Birdman »

I think this is a complex problem without a simple answer. I drove in the Independence Day Parade in Washington, DC. The parade route is a mile in length, it was very hot and the parade went slowly. I made it through the complete parade but the car began to overheat and at the end it blew its top, so to speak. I had driven the car on a long drive up to Frederick, MD from Rockville the previous day and then down I-70 and came home on Georgia Avenue extended. There was a lot of stop and go traffic on I-270 so it was a good test and everything seemed okay. Once I got home after the car cooled down I got the "brilliant" idea to add more coolant to the radiator thinking that would help even more with the cooling. Bad idea! When the car overheated it blew out steam from the radiator like a Stanley Steamer and it lost a quart or more of coolant. A fellow club member and I waited around for a half hour and then I checked the radiator thinking I would need to add coolant. Imagine my surprise when the radiator was full to the level it had been before I added coolant. I started the car up and drove it home without any problems, although the temperature still stayed at the high end of the white line. At this point I have a theory that there may be an air pocket in the system that caused things to go haywire. I could see the gauge going up but there wasn't much I could do besides the usual things like popping the hood open and taking the car out of gear when possible. I ran it last night for 35 minutes with the radiator cap off in my garage. It didn't overhead but it definitely ran to the high side of normal. Other than the spacer I put in a new water pump, a new aluminum radiator, and a six blade fan with a fan clutch.

Obviously this isn't the result that I expected. I still think the spacer is a good idea, but it won't necessarily fix all cooling problems if there is something else wrong with the system. For example, if you water passages are gunked up that will still be a problem no matter what else you do. We can talk more when you have the chance.

I am driving in a parade tomorrow evening, call me a glutton for punishment. I will use the thermocouple on my multi-meter to see what the temperatures are and report back.
Regards,
Lew Bachman
1957 Colonial White
CSavaglio
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by CSavaglio »

While the spacer may help things, there are a number of reasons Y-blocks tend to overheat. The water pump isn't a great design, but as someone with a stock water pump, 4-blade fan and zero cooling issues even having owned the car in El Paso and Las Cruces where temperatures routinely go above 110*, I think there are other issues at play.

When building, the head gaskets will bolt up backwards just fine, but block coolant passages. If you do it right, one gasket will look right side up and the other won't.

Another big issue is rust in the block. Chunks of rust and crud build up...I personally think this is the biggest problem most have. You can access some of it by pulling the freeze plugs and digging it out.

Radiators in poor shape adds to it as well. At minimum, if you don't know if or when it was last done, the radiator should be hot tanked, flushed and pressure checked for leaks by a radiator shop. I ended up replacing mine with a 4 core copper radiator. Looks stock, but works much better. It's not cheap, but neither are the results of an overheated engine. All else being equal, copper radiators cool better than aluminum ones...modern aluminum radiators use much different fin designs to increase their efficiency...car makers use aluminum because it's lighter and cheaper, not because it cools better.

Gil Baumgartner discusses some of this and more here as well and shows pics of the coolant passage rust also.
https://www.ctci.org/gilsgarage/Overheating.php

And, although it's been said over and over, don't trust the gauge. An infrared temp gun is super cheap (under $30us) and is one of the most useful tools you can have. Even though it boiled over, it's possible that the radiator cap has worn out (you didn't mention if you had it checked, how new it was, or the rating).

Since you're taking the water pump off to install the spacer anyway, check the condition of its impeller. They can rust away over time, especially on cars that sit. I've seen impellers that were almost completely gone and was amazed that they moved any coolant at all.

Y-blocks are known for not cooling great and I think it comes from several small things compounding and not necessarily a poor initial design.

Chris
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by CSPIDY »

Before I installed the new spacer I noticed that during the first warmup after starting the engine cold, the water temp would go up above the operating temperture range towards the "H" then would drift back into the middle of the white arc and run normal after that. Since I installed the spacer, I noticed that the initial temp rise from cold goes to the extreem high side and sits there for about 30 to 60 seconds then drifts back into the white arc and operates normal after that.

As mentioned in prior posts I have installed the CASCO 170 wide mouth thermostat (which I have replaced for troubleshooting), I have the CASCO duel impeller high out put water pump. Removed the heater control valve extension. And installed a plug into the by-pass with a 1/8 hole drilled into it. I am beginning t believe the plug is the cause of the initial high temp because of no flow through the engine. Has anyone else experiance this?
57 D code Colonial White


Wise man once told me, "you don't know what you don't know"

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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by bammer »

I did everything you did except installing the bolt with the 1/8th inch hole in the bypass, I'll let you know.
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Re: Water pump spacer A-432

Post by paul2748 »

I have noticed that my 56 does the same thing (I don't have the new spacer installed). I do have the plug in the bypass with the 1/8 hole and a wide mouth thermostat. I just replaced the thermostat because of this as I thought it was going bad. The new one I installed I checked it out before installing and the temp gauge does the same thing with the new thermostat.

I plan to install the new spacer this winter and I am going to take out the plug in the bypass just to check to see if that is the cause..
CSPIDY wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:50 am Before I installed the new spacer I noticed that during the first warmup after starting the engine cold, the water temp would go up above the operating temperture range towards the "H" then would drift back into the middle of the white arc and run normal after that. Since I installed the spacer, I noticed that the initial temp rise from cold goes to the extreem high side and sits there for about 30 to 60 seconds then drifts back into the white arc and operates normal after that.

As mentioned in prior posts I have installed the CASCO 170 wide mouth thermostat (which I have replaced for troubleshooting), I have the CASCO duel impeller high out put water pump. Removed the heater control valve extension. And installed a plug into the by-pass with a 1/8 hole drilled into it. I am beginning t believe the plug is the cause of the initial high temp because of no flow through the engine. Has anyone else experiance this?
1956 Fiesta Red 312
1954 Ford Victoria 312
1948 Ford Convertible Street Rod 302
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