The Disk Brake Diary.....Thread covering Disk swap on a '63

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novanutcase
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Post by novanutcase »

I?ll be going to an adjustable prop valve next.
Adjustable prop valve is the only way to go as far as I'm concerned....

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edpol
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Post by edpol »

Did the DOT change the regs? No station around here would pass cars with adjustables without a bribe, at least that's how it was about 10 years ago.
edpol
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Post by edpol »

Did some more digging. The guy who inspects our vehicles said there's no reason for anyone to get the wrong year calipers from any reputable parts house, that deals with reputable rebuilders, who rebuild to OEM specs.
Then he went on about a much forgotten and under-reported controversy dealing with metric calipers starting in 1979. Most of it concerned the version used in early FWD cars. There were problems with rear brakes locking up due to aggressive linings, wrong proportioning, etc. People died, and the gov. was lax with regulation. It wasn't sorted out until the mid '80's.
He went on to say, with a disc/drum system, wheel cylinders, drum size, and width of the shoes are major factors in designing the system. It's just his opinion, but due to the smaller piston bore in the metrics, our 15/16" bore wheel cylinders and 11" drums may be too large, even with big bores.
His view of the kits is mostly speculation, but he did say he won't install them without a detailed report on the testing done for a particular make and model.
Another thing mentioned, was the use of race car brakes on the road. Great if you use pads deigned for street use, disastrous if you use race pads. He also thinks they're not necessary, and any properly designed conversion is an improvement over drums at all corners.
edpol
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Post by edpol »

Forgive me for using the wrong nomenclature. We were talking about street/strip applications. He's had too many kids come in because they figured more expensive pads meant better.
We all know that aftermarket discs with factory drums are used by many without issue. However, in the context of kits designed for our cars so we could still use 14" wheels, adjustable prop valves are not always THE cure-all.
BTW, one reason a lot of guys I knew used adjustable prop valves, was to determine specs for a fixed one, especially for cars that were mainly street driven. Not everyone keeps them permanently.
Joe Johnston
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Post by Joe Johnston »

It would be interesting to see a real world comp between the stock Drum brakes vs one of these cheaper conversion kits. My guess is the difference is very little in Stopping distance.
I too would like to see a comparison. I changed my 57 from original power drum brakes to manual disk brakes (11" rotors and maintained the 14" wheels). There is increased pedal effort and some better braking in normal driving - but how much? The big improvement for me is stopping relatively quickly at highway (60+) speeds. The disks will not fade out like the narrow linings used on Little Birds. The biggest increase in safety for me is to try and be extra careful and stay back from the vehicle in front of me.
PLEASE invest a few bucks and buy all the shop manuals for your car. Definitely will save you much time and be an education.

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edpol
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Post by edpol »

After driving the one car, I noticed a HUGE difference in stopping power, which surprised me. The gain was far from "very little". The owner had some issues at first, but he ironed them out. I wish I'd have asked more questions about his initial problems. When the problems are ironed out, brake fade disappears. You don't have to worry about getting the adjustments exact to eliminate brake pull after every brake job either.
Keep in mind, these are the same calipers installed in '80's Riviera's and Toronado's, which are comparable in weight, wheelbase and track to our cars. The differences are in the step bore MC's after 1980, and the smaller diameter wheel cylinders to help balance out the smaller calipers and 10 3/8" rotors.
From what I've heard, big bore metrics are an improvement, but there's still more fiddling to do. That's something I want to avoid. The only testing I can do is on the street.
"Go big or go home" is cute and clever, but I find wheels larger than 16" on these cars look out of place, with the exception of a few styles of 17" wheels. Even so, I'd prefer to keep 14" wheels if a simple conversion is possible, but I'll go to 15" if I have to.
I've heard from two people who installed MP front kits on early '60's Galaxies. These use 11 3/4" rotors and GM calipers for full size cars. They had no issues with rear brake lockup, spongy pedals, etc., and 15" wheels fit. At $900 with no MC or booster, seems kinda steep for a system that can be made with some fabricating skills.
edpol
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Post by edpol »

What you call marginal, most of us call normal. I had an '80 Eldo and an '84 Riv, my friend had an '82 Toronado. All of them stopped just fine, even at 70 mph on parkways. There wasn't much difference between the Eldo and the Riv, despite the Eldo having rear discs. And ALL of them had WAY better stopping power than any all drum cars I owned, including this one.
If you drive 60 mph in a 30 mph zone, like I did in my younger days, then yes, those brakes are marginal by todays big brake standards. But even then, I had no problem stopping the Riv, OR my 5000 LB. plus Mark IV, which had single piston calipers and lacked the hydroboost option.
For most of us leisurely cruisers, those big brakes are an unnecessary expense.
The only things I have against these cheaper metric caliper kits, is that they need too much tweaking after the installation, and there's no splash shield. That's why I decided against using metrics.
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Post by scumdog »

Bdastrk wrote:Marginal is when it takes more then 1/8th mile to stop a car after it hits 100 MPH! Marginal is when you cant lock up all 4 wheels, Marginal is what just about every car back in the 80's had.............Thats marginal. Too me buying these cheap brakes kits that are out there is like buying a smart car...........Sure you save some coin until someone with a POS thunderbird cant stop fast enough because he bought a cheap set of brakes and plows right into you!
So you're saying "Go Wilwood or go home"?

Tough on the guys with restored cars...
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ozbird
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Post by ozbird »

I don't think he is saying that, well I don't believe so! :mrgreen:

The jury is out until I report back with my Hydroboost upgrade, if that works as I hope then the 65/66 disc brakes are a perfect starting point.

Graeme
1962 Hardtop - in Melbourne, Australia
edpol
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Post by edpol »

Marginal is when it takes more then 1/8th mile to stop a car after it hits 100 MPH!
You made my point. We're not driving 100 mph. We're driving at or a bit above speed limits. After the installation, when all the negatives are eliminated, they will indeed lock up all four wheels. Which BTW, has been determined to be dangerous as well. That's why ABS was invented.
So, let me get this straight. All '80's and earlier cars are dangerous because the brakes are marginal at best?
My '98 Windstar has about the same stopping power as my Riv. So I guess it's ready for the junkyard. While we're at it, lets get all semi's off the road, because it takes more than 1/8 mile for them to stop when they're travelling at 100 mph. I guess we have to worry about all the POS Tbirds and other cars that still have all drum brakes plowing into us, because the owners didn't even upgrade to a system that was marginal.

"Not saying that at all Scumdog, What I am saying is Like OZBIRD its a total reconstruction of brakes, it isnt throw on a set of calipers and you now have a safe braking car. It takes IMHO a hydro Boost system or an LARGE diaphram power brake system, Proportioning valve, Residual Valve, Hard lines, Braided lines etc to make this conversion work!"

I've been saying basically the same thing. Too much tweaking needed for my taste, to make this conversion work.
However, braided lines aren't necessary, the rubber hoses still work on cars driven in a normal fashion, though I prefer the braided lines myself. Our 9 1/4" boosters also work with stock engines, but MC's definitely need upgrading. These kits generally either include a prop valve, or say you need one at an extra cost. Some also include residual valves.
I haven't seen any kit instructions that say to throw the rotors and calipers on, and you're good to go.

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ozbird
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Post by ozbird »

Calm down fella's - lets not get into a slinging match.

I respect someone who restores their car exactly how it was back in the day and drives it knowing it's limitations. Updating brakes to improve stopping power by 20-30% is better than nothing but 'you've got's to know your limitations'.

I think where BaDAssTrk and I are coming from is striving to cater for that 'Perfect Storm' when some idiot pulls out in front of us from a T intersection and we cannot stop with standard brakes, no matter how much space we leave between the car in front. ::?

Let's face it, we will not be driving these cars daily and here in Australia the laws are tough so I won't be speeding in a hurry. The 1/8 mile stopping distance is a non issue for me but...I want to lock up the brakes for the love of Pete! (where does that phrase come from anyway?)


Graeme
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edpol
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Post by edpol »

I respect someone who restores their car exactly how it was back in the day and drives it knowing it's limitations. Updating brakes to improve stopping power by 20-30% is better than nothing but 'you've got's to know your limitations'.

I think where BaDAssTrk and I are coming from is striving to cater for that 'Perfect Storm' when some idiot pulls out in front of us from a T intersection and we cannot stop with standard brakes, no matter how much space we leave between the car in front. Yellow Confused
I get that. But at the same time, if that "perfect storm" occurs, even the best brakes may not be good enough.
You guys need the extra boost and braking power to match up to your engines. Others may feel the need for them. But for a lot of us, that 20-30% is all we need to feel more confident when driving at or slightly above speed limits, plus having other benefits of disc brakes.
I do know the difference between marginal and damn good. I'm saying these kits, properly installed and tuned, are above marginal.
The Windstar isn't anywhere near ready for the crapper. I like it. It's comfortable, mileage is decent, runs great, bought it with enough dings so people keep their distance, yet doesn't look so bad when I go out for steak. AND, it holds all my hunting and fishing gear with room to spare.
If the 2013 911 stops short in front of a 2013 Escalade 6 lengths behind, the 911 is still going to get slammed, I don't see your point.
I've seen a lot of those accidents too. A lot of times it's due to driver distraction or DWI. Vehicular homicide? Not worried about it much. I don't drink and drive, don't use drugs, and don't own a cell phone anymore. I don't like people interrupting me since retiring.
Last edited by edpol on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ozbird
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Post by ozbird »

LOL - now to change the subject for a moment, what is a Windstar?


Graeme :mrgreen:
1962 Hardtop - in Melbourne, Australia
edpol
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Post by edpol »

It's a Ford minivan, 1995-2003.

http://images1.americanlisted.com/nlarg ... 036591.jpg

BTW, did you find your cupro nickel brake lines there? It's my understanding they were available there fairly long before being introduced in The States.
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ozbird
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Post by ozbird »

I did find the brake lines but should have enough to keep me going for the time being - very good to know I can source it locally.

Thanks for the heads up.

That Windstar looks like a Kia that we have here - known to be a lemon:

Image


Graeme :mrgreen:
1962 Hardtop - in Melbourne, Australia
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