4.6L into 61-3 - I've Seen It Done!

Alan H. Tast · Post by **Alan H. Tast** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:42 pm

After being asked since 2005 if a 4.6L Mod-8 engine can be retrofitted into a '61-3 'Bird, I can now tell you that yes, it can be done - and there were not only one, but two '61-3s at the International in Portland that had them installed! As I don't have a place to host pics, I can tell you what I learned from at least one owner with a '61 convertible. Because I'm going off of memory and didn't take notes, what I recall him saying is:
First, you will need to modify the spring/shock towers by removing a portion of the lower inner structure and welding in steel plates to fill the holes. Steel angle was also involved with this part if I remember correctly.
Second, you'll need to fabricate an exhaust header/manifold to clear the steering gear housing.
Third, you'll need to fabricate a steel plate for the engine mounts that will allow the original motor-to-body mounts to be used.
Fourth, you will need an in-line electric fuel pump between the tank and engine, and fabricate a return line to go back to the tank. They installed a new tank and fabricated a return line into it with a few baffles in the line inside the tank.
Fifth, there is a place somewhere in Colorado which has the computers/ECMs for this conversion versus reusing the ECMs from a Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis, etc. A large wiring loom has to be run between the engine bay and the trunk area - he mounted the ECMs inside the driver's side rear quarter (where the jack would normally be stowed) and concealed them with the panel used for the stock trunk liner.

If anyone can add to this thread, please do so. If I can get the photo hosting thing sorted out on my end, I can attach a few pics of both installations shown in Portland.

kevindeluca66 · Post by **kevindeluca66** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:09 pm

Speaking of Portland I hope you get the pic thing fixed so those of us not able to go can see the event in still form.

VicRattlehead · Post by **VicRattlehead** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:25 pm

Photobucket.com

Easy and simple to use. Please post them pics!!!

Were these 2v, 3v, or 4v motors?
Sctflash.com can deal with the EEC part of things.

redstangbob · Post by **redstangbob** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:35 pm

Were these 2v, 3v, or 4v motors?

That's what I was wondering

Alan H. Tast · Post by **Alan H. Tast** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:11 pm

I know I should know better, but I don't know if they were 2-, 3- or 4-valve engines. One was actually shrouded so much that I couldn't tell, but I do know they weren't Cobra-type engines with the wider valve covers, so I'm assuming 2- or 3-valve if that's what was typically used in Crown Victorias/Grand Marquis. What should I be looking for in terms of spotting features?

VicRattlehead · Post by **VicRattlehead** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:58 pm

4v have valve covers the size of texas and look like old hemi valve covers.

2v are well, 2v older ones have 2 coil packs with plug wires, newer ones have coil on plug setup. the valve covers are also flat on the exhaust side see pic 1 below. the top cover is the drivers side left is the front of the engine. windsor heads have 13 bolts, romeo have 11 bolts. also windsors have passenger side oil fill, romeo have the driver side fill.

3v the valve covers on these on the intake side are flat, the exhaust side are contoured around the sparkplugs front is on the right. see pic 2

pic1....

pic2

VicRattlehead · Post by **VicRattlehead** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:02 am

[quote=Alan H. Tast]I know I should know better, but I don't know if they were 2-, 3- or 4-valve engines. One was actually shrouded so much that I couldn't tell, but I do know they weren't Cobra-type engines with the wider valve covers, so I'm assuming 2- or 3-valve if that's what was typically used in Crown Victorias/Grand Marquis. What should I be looking for in terms of spotting features?[/quote]

cv/gm use 2v engines.

also, if you want to email me the pics feel free ill host them for awhile.

keithdeluca at mac -dot- com

VicRattlehead · Post by **VicRattlehead** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:07 am

Dirty Birdy · Post by **Dirty Birdy** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:42 pm

looks like a 2v in both, I dont think the 32v motor will fit? That looks pretty tight as it is. Both those installs look pretty good though, very nice job, clean looking installs especially the second one.

This is pretty!

novanutcase · Post by **novanutcase** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:20 am

Here's what I don't understand....

Why would you want to go to all the trouble of yanking out a motor that puts out close to 300hp and replace it with a motor that will do 245hp at best!

If the 2V's are modded for more HP than why not take the money invested in adding horsepower along with the 2v itself and pull the ol' FE out and go to town on it!

Can someone educate me as to why someone would do this?

John

TsNStangs · Post by **TsNStangs** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:22 pm

John, you beat me to the punch here. I started to post the same thing yesterday when this first came up, but got distracted with work.
I understand there could be a more reliable aspect to the Mod motors, but at the expense of so much FE HP and even more to the point - torque??? And how much could the reliability factor come into play with cars that are driven as infrequently as these usually are anyway?
Other than the bragging rights of just plain ol' having something different, I don't get it...

***Disclaimer: All that said, let it be known I fully respect the right of other car owners to do what they wish to their cars...(just don't expect me to always understand their reasoning!)

60fore · Post by **60fore** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:01 pm

I spoke to the owner of the '61 convertible (white car in the top picture above) at our "T-Birds for Teddy Bears" event a couple of weeks ago. He told me he used the engine and AOD trans. from a '93 Grand Marquis. With dual exhaust the factory HP and torque ratings were 210 & 275 (net) for the 2V 4.6 motor. Don't forget the 300 hp/427 torque figures for the original 390 were calculated using the old SAE gross rating. So net hp for the 390 is probably 250 at best.

Here are some benefits of doing the swap as per the owner:

- At least 500 pounds were removed from the front of the car (which helps compensate for the lower torque of the 4.6)

- With the AOD trans, highway fuel mileage has improved to 26 mpg (Imp.) and cruising is much quieter with the lower revs

- Performance is actually BETTER with the new drivetrain. I'm thinking parasitic losses in the engine and trans. are probably much lower now.

VicRattlehead · Post by **VicRattlehead** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:28 pm

Thrrs nothing like hearing a mod motor shift 1-2 at 8500rpm with the front tires 2 feet off the ground.

Fuel injection is jus better

And lastly, if we were only getting 245 hp out of a mod motor our shop would have closed years ago.

If my little mod motor doesn't make 450 to the wheels we gonna have some issues. That's on pump gas and 25+mpg.

novanutcase · Post by **novanutcase** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:28 pm

I'm talking about a STOCK mod motor! ANY motor can be built to be a bruiser but I guess my issue is with all the modifications that would need to be made just to make it fit much less having to reprogram the ECU, etc.

Also, even though he makes a good point about AOD the same can be retrofitted to the most any tranny with the same effect. I'm sure someone like GearVendors could have retrofitted his stock 3 speed with AOD and he wouldn't have had to change out the tranny crossmember along with whatever other mount points he may have had to change out.

I would think that it would also devalue the car just that much more but if he likes it and the effort outweighed the cost then more power to him!

I just don't see it as a cost effective transplant. NOW.....if he had transplanted a Coyote or Cammer engine and dropped in a 6 speed auto that would be different!

John

VicRattlehead · Post by **VicRattlehead** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:21 pm

i will agree with one thing, why in the world would one use a pre 96 4.6 and for that matter, any non pi engine out there. the newer modular runs about 260hp, an aluminum blocked engine out of an explorer would get another hundred pounds off that nose. its also a "PI" headed engine.

now not to tick anyone off or anything, but pushrods and ohv, carbs and dizzy's are useless, and, STOCK is BORING!! Id rather see a nicely done retro rod then most concourse stuff. old metal with new engine and drivetrain, brakes & suspension is what i like.