Cooling

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novanutcase
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Re: Re:More Cooling

Post by novanutcase » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:21 am

mheffernan wrote:Absolutely fascinating discussion, this. I have two '62's, one an original-engined coupe with 113,000. Temp needle barely gets off C no matter what's going on. Technician "shot" it at idle`with an IR temp sensor. Nothing over 210 anywhere following a freeway drive of 10 miles in moderate heat.
The *other* 'Bird, a convertible, does nothing *but* overheat: rebuilt engine, new pump, new rad core, new 'stat, new hoses, 50/50 mix with HyperLube water treament, tuned to spec. Does okay while cruising but needle rockets to H in rush hour traffic (L.A.). Oddly, enough, it did exactly the same thing, "run warm" in exactly the same way before the engine build. I was shocked when that didn't resolve it.
Considering fans (I saw a very nice install of a puller fan in a '63, replacing original fan and fan clutch), or I'd really like to find an all-aluminum radiator. But I will parse thru this discussion and hopefully find a solution.
M
Keep in mind that aluminum is actually less efficient at dissipating heat than copper. The whole aluminum radiator thing got popular because race cars were having them installed but they weren't installing them so much for the better cooling as much as the weight savings. Obviously design has a part to play in it and the crossflow style radiators certainly do a better job at moving the water over as much cooling surface as possible but if I had a choice and I was only going to be cruising the car and not racing it competitively I would stick with a stock or aftermarket copper finned radiator.

As far as your other bird and it's overheating problems, you said that the car has been tuned to spec. How did whoever tune it set the timing? With a timing gun or did they do it by ear? If they did it with a timing light and you have the stock harmonic balancer you may want to revisit retiming it as the harmonic balancers on these engines get old and the Timing mark may have moved. On my '61 I found that HB hash mark was not in sync and had moved due to the HB being so old so I would tune it by ear. Car ran cooler. It didn't completely solve my problem but it helped drop the temp noticeably.

Whereabouts in L.A. are you? I'm in the valley.

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bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:56 am

FWIW, I'm now at 16 degrees of initial timing and still using manifold vacuum for vacuum advance which I have limited (by its setscrew) to 10 degrees of additional timing. With 20 degrees of centrifugal timing from the distributor, this gives me 36 "total" timing with another 10 at idle and cruise. Combined with finding a couple of vacuum leaks (which caused a leaner, hotter burn) this has noticeably helped my overheating. Still, I plan to install a 16" Spal pusher fan this winter to help the engine run cooler on hotter days in traffic. I think the timing mark on my harmonic balancer is correct as it was rebuilt supposedly by a PO not many miles ago. I also noticed a little difficulty in starter cranking as I experimented with higher initial timing settings. As noted in another post, to accomodate ethanol fuel, I increased the primary jet size from 54 to 56. This should also help cooling.

Bill
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mheffernan
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Re: Cooling

Post by mheffernan » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:31 pm

Hi, John.

This rebuilder specializes in classic car engine work. It was timed with a light (I actually have one, too!), has electronic ignition. I have seen it both ways about radiator construction and material. In reality, a standard copper 3-row like the one I have should be sufficient. Something else is going on, tho, and I really suspect the fan.
Yesterday I called The Motorman (KABC's Leon Kaplan), had a delightfully long conversation. His first suggestion is to get rid of the fan clutch and attach a fan directly to the pump pulley. I plan to try this.
The mystery to me, as I indicated, is that this engine behaved exactly the same way before the rebuild (firing on 7 cylinders, no less) as it is now.
I don't recall if the harmonic balancer is rubber-mounted on the 390, but the engine runs fine.
Over by LAX, wonderfully close to the beach. I can only imagine what temps are in the valley.
Thanks for the response...
Mike

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Re: Cooling

Post by mheffernan » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:33 pm

ALl that said, John, were I to try setting the timing by ear, what am I looking for? Detonation?
M

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Re: Cooling

Post by novanutcase » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:46 pm

mheffernan wrote:Hi, John.

This rebuilder specializes in classic car engine work. It was timed with a light (I actually have one, too!), has electronic ignition. I have seen it both ways about radiator construction and material. In reality, a standard copper 3-row like the one I have should be sufficient. Something else is going on, tho, and I really suspect the fan.
Yesterday I called The Motorman (KABC's Leon Kaplan), had a delightfully long conversation. His first suggestion is to get rid of the fan clutch and attach a fan directly to the pump pulley. I plan to try this.
The mystery to me, as I indicated, is that this engine behaved exactly the same way before the rebuild (firing on 7 cylinders, no less) as it is now.
I don't recall if the harmonic balancer is rubber-mounted on the 390, but the engine runs fine.
Over by LAX, wonderfully close to the beach. I can only imagine what temps are in the valley.
Thanks for the response...
Mike
Since you live in Cali then I would try what LK suggested as the consistent weather here diminishes the need for a fan clutch. What I understand, as far as the fan clutch, is that it helps in getting the engine up to operating temperature faster along with being able to regulate the fan RPM so that it can more consistently keep the engine running at it's optimal temperature but that probably applies more for areas where inclement weather is more of a factor.

As far as timing by ear, I would get it close with the gun and then go from there.....detonation and then back it off a bit. Drive the car and see how she performs. If you don't like it back it off a little more while keeping an eye on the high temp issue.

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55Greg&Amy
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Re: Cooling

Post by 55Greg&Amy » Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:12 pm

I always understood the fan clutch to work differently. I have always thought that the fan would work as normal until the vehicle reached a certain speed and enough air was flowing into the engine and that air force would actually cause the clutch to stop the fan from spinning and increase fuel economy. Upon slowing the vehicle there was less air being pushed in and the clutch would then again allow the engine to turn the fan and keep it moving at slower speeds.
Greg Minnich
Fort Wayne, In

mheffernan
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Re: Cooling

Post by mheffernan » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:07 pm

I would think so, too. However, aside from the fact that I am running out of things to fix/replace, and my fuel economy is abysmal as it is, and he has a whole lot more experience than I, it seems reasonable to eliminate this as a factor. Kaplan's reasoning was that an aftermarket (nee: Chinese-made) component may not be performing optimally.
If I didn't have to pull the front bumper to do it, I'd first install a pusher fan in front. I am still tempted to replace the mechanical fan with a puller electric.

M

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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:58 pm

Mike, I have puchased a Spal 16" pusher fan for my 61. I think it will fit without too much interference removal. Spal's reputation is good and they also offer a 16" puller. If you decide to go the puller route, another option is Cooling Components who have a 17" with a shroud that supposedly fits our cars. These are a little pricey. After all the other things I have done to address overheating, I think this will work for me. Good luck.

Bill
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Re: Cooling

Post by smorgasbird » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:56 pm

I'll just jump in a minute. I've been following this thread, trying to resolve my own over-heating problem. I, too, have a '61 with a rebuilt 390 that overheats at idle, or in heavy traffic. As long as its moving the old bird doesn't have a problem- which makes me think it's an airflow problem. I had the radiator recored, the block is clean, the timing is good...but she still overheats. So, I tried a pusher fan (along with the factory fan - not a clutch fan) and it made NO difference. I installed a larger diameter fan with more blades- NO difference.I even tried installing a Ported Vacuum Switch in the intake just before the T-stat (so it would switch to manifold vacuum when it reached 210 degrees)-NO difference. Interestingly enough, I have a friend with a '68 Mercury Monterey (lots of grill opening) with a 390, and he has the same problem. These old cars didn't overheat at idle or in heavy traffic back in the day- so why do we have these problems now?
Mike S
Grand Rapids, Mi
'61 red HT

Joe Johnston
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Re: Cooling

Post by Joe Johnston » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:01 am

These old cars didn't overheat at idle or in heavy traffic back in the day- so why do we have these problems now?
Global warming??? :shock:

OK, just a feeble attempt at adding a bit of humor to a serious subject. Sorry.

You are correct, they ran fine back in the day, and if everything is clean and set correctly they should today as well. Biggest and perhaps the only difference is the fuel we have today. Since all appears to be fine, I would try to find non ethanol fuel in your area and fill up. E0 is available in my area in FL at Racetrack stations and is what I use in my 57 and 63 both with stock cooling systems. Although this may not help, I think it would be worth a try if you can find E0. A web search should show if its available.
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Re: Cooling

Post by novanutcase » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:11 pm

55Greg&Amy wrote:I always understood the fan clutch to work differently. I have always thought that the fan would work as normal until the vehicle reached a certain speed and enough air was flowing into the engine and that air force would actually cause the clutch to stop the fan from spinning and increase fuel economy. Upon slowing the vehicle there was less air being pushed in and the clutch would then again allow the engine to turn the fan and keep it moving at slower speeds.
If you look at the fan clutch workings you'll find a thin strip of metal that expands and contracts with heat and works as the "clutch" portion of the fan clutch regulating how much resistance the fan clutch will make at any given temperature. When the car is at speed the air being pulled by the fan through the radiator, along with the added airflow , hits the fan clutch and cools the metal strip which loosens the fan clutch and slows down the fan but at idle with only the air that the fan is able to generate and no additional airflow the metal strip starts to heat up and adds more resistance to the clutch which in turn speeds up the fan. At least that is how I understand it.

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bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:12 pm

Methinks Joe might be on to something regarding ethanol fuels causing engines to run hotter. Check out this discussion on an AACA forum.

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/213002-eth ... -magazine/

I haven't tried non-ethanol fuel myself but I think I will just to see if there is a noticeable difference. Since I'm using larger carburetor jets now to accomodate ethanol fuel, I'm not sure if this will skew my results.

Good discussion. Thanks to all for their interest.

Bill
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Re: Cooling

Post by Joe Johnston » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:53 pm

This is going to be a bit long but I read through the info on the link provided and picked some quotes that I can relate to. I can only say it seems to work for me BUT also consider that I do not do parades, do not have AC, but do drive in central FL with 90+ temps and humidity to match. My cooling systems on both the 57 and 63 are stock, including fan, fan shrouds, radiators, vacuum advances work (timed with vacuum gauges and my ears so advanced more than specs). The 312 and the 390 have both been recently rebuilt and have hardened valve seats, slightly higher compression and a cam changes, but nothing even getting close to radical by any means.

My engine builder suggested adding Marvel Mystery Oil (4 oz to 10 gal) and also Stybul to every tankful using E10. HIS claim was E10 is "dryer" or "less oily" and does not lubricate or leave an oily protecting film on stuff like E0. I have been doing that when I can't get E0 and have no problems overheating, or vapor lock/hard starting issues (YES I still run points and condensers on both cars!). Current carb on the 57 is an AFB that is well over 30 years old and the 63 is an original 4100. Both look good inside.

I guess each individual needs to find what will work for each of them, but if E0 is available that would be the first thing I would try (after all, ya probably need gas any way!)


No, can say in a sentance: Ethanol may run hotter in an engine not designed for it. Ethanol naturally burns slower than gasoline and is detonation resistant. It also takes a richer mixture since it does not produce as much energy. Now the games producers play to maintain the same PON (pump octane number) can include adding ethanol to lower octane gas to maintain the same flame propagation rate.
I suspect that the main issues with ethanol use are more related to the drying action which it has on the rubber components of the fuel system. As the "oils in the rubber" are depleted, it can crack and allow fuel to seep through it, which further deteriorates the item. I've recently heard of the inside-out action on fuel lines having the scenario that, as the ethanol dries out the inner layers of fuel lines, the fuel further seeps into the core reinforcement layer of the hose, then proceeds to the outer layers of the hose, which then flake off, leaving the inner reinforcement cord exposed . . . and fuel leaks can begin.
So lets stick to the effects of ethanol and how to compensate for them. Only real change I've made other than to use slightly richer jets is to use only new carb kits and fuel lines. That is one place that NOS should stay on the shelf.

ps is anyone else left who remebers how to drill out a jet ? Or is everyone a parts swapper now ?
only variable that I have no control over is the fuel mixture sold at the pumps here in California. Everything that I have read points to Ethanol gas as the problem for both the running hot and vapor locking.

My question is what am I supposed to do? Stop driving my car? Only drive when the temperature is cooler – which means leaving early in the morning and turning around and going home as soon as I arrive. The afternoons can get into the 90-100s here most of the year.

I have heard of adding diesel fuel, 2-cyle oil, transmission fluid, airplane gas, and other home brews to the gas tank. Does anyone know if these really compensates for the Ethanol in the gas? Will unauthorized additives in the gas tank help with both the vapor locking and the engine running hotter? What additive is best? What is the ratio? How much per gallon of gas do you add to the tank?
Regarding Mark Huston's question above, I've been adding 2-cycle engine oil to my older cars for a long time now and this has cured the vapor lock problems I've experienced. I use a couple of ounces per half-tank fill-up and I also add Stabil preservative. I keep the tanks on my cars full. Some people use Marvel Mystery Oil instead of 2-cycle oil which is fine but more expensive. Diesel fuel will work also but it contains sulfur which will corrode any yellow metals (brass, copper, bronze) with which it comes in contact so it is unsuitable for many prewar cars. The idea is to reduce modern fuel's volatility by adding oil to reduce the tendency of the fuel to vaporize in the lines at hot points.
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mheffernan
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Re: Cooling

Post by mheffernan » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:46 pm

Hi, Bill, Mike S. and anyone else tuned in.

Mike, sounds like you have done everything that I have done or am about to do with essentially the same foundation: 1961 390, recently well rebuilt, new core, 7 blade fan, etc., etc. Yet no success. As I said earlier, were it not for the fact that my *other* 1962 Bird ( a Coupe) never gets past "C" in any Westside traffic, I'd figure it is the nature of the beast. Could it be the '61 engine itself, with a design so different from my '62 (with 113,000 miles on it and running like a watch)? An inherent thing?
There has *got* to be a wrench in my area who can figure it out. This cannot be rocket science. I do want to get my hands on an IR temp gun, tho and run some tests. Something just isn't kosher, especially since my convertible does fine until the first slowdown.
Of course, I have to figure out what's wrong with the damn top, too.
I suspect that this wasn't a big problem back in the day cuz back in the day, they didn't have the traffic snarls (read:the 405) we have now.

Mike H.

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Re: Cooling

Post by smorgasbird » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:59 am

Mike,
I suspect it has nothing to do with the year the engine was produced. The PO of my '61 transplanted a '64 390 into it, and a friend with a '68 Mercury has the same problem with his 390.
My Dad had a 390 in a '67 Ford (his daily driver) when I was a kid. When I turned 16 (1972) I drove it once in a while too. It never overheated at idle or in traffic. So I don't think its just the nature of the beast either.
Also, my ex-brother-in-law says his Dad had a '63 T-Bird with a 390 that overheated (back in the 70's) and they would pull the t-stat out in the summer and drive it that way until fall. However, it doesn't seem like that would've made much difference since the t-stat opens at 180 and stays open until the engine cools again. So, who knows? Think I'll just sell the bird and get out of the hobby altogether- who needs the trouble?
Mike S
Grand Rapids, Mi
'61 red HT

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