Cooling

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bbogue
Posts: 850
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 3:04 am

Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue »

I may have found the source of my overheating issue, or at least a big part of it. Today, enroute to checking the centrifugal advance (thanks Okie61), I discovered that the vacuum advance on my less-than-a-year-old rebuilt distributor is not working (won't hold vacuum). Besides the obvious retarded timing effects at lower rpms, this also means a leaner (hotter burning) mixture. The good news is the part is available locally and is not expensive. The bad news is the TBird vendor would not stand behind their part. I will be doing less business with them. I may yet be able to avoid installing an electric fan.

I will post again after the installation and test.

Bill
Past owner 1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue »

After installing the new vacuum advance I took the car for a short run. With ambient temps in the mid-80's the engine never got over 180 running 55-60mph. I stopped and let it idle for more than 5 minutes during which time it slowly climbed to 210. It quickly cooled down when I picked up speed again. I still need to check the timing and carb idle mixture again but I don't think these changes will negate what I saw today. I'm pretty sure I can advance the timing a bit more which should only improve temps. I expect there will be an electric fan in the future but now I'm thinking only supplemental, triggered by a manual switch.

Thanks for your interest.

Bill
Past owner 1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue »

If anyone has installed an electric pusher fan on a bullet bird I would be interested to know how/if you did so without using those radiator push-through nylon thingies. I don't wish to damage my new radiator with an electric fan. Spal has some long brackets for their fans but there is no flange on the front of my radiator to support a bracket. Thanks.

Bill
Past owner 1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
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redbow
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Location: Greenville, Texas

Re: Cooling

Post by redbow »

When I replaced the dual fans on my 57. They had two 1/4" rods bent so the fans were just about touching the radiator. The rods were then bolted to the core support on either side. It was a chore to get out and I did not reuse them. Went with the thingies through the radiator. They work well and do not damage the radiator all that much if you just take your time and are careful. Have used that method on my 35 Ford Panel, 55 Pontiac Star Chief, and a couple of other vehicles without any adverse effects.

Burke
Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
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bbogue
Posts: 850
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue »

Thanks Burke. Those little fins a certainly close together. Good to know of your successes. That's the way I will go if I can't figure out another way.

Bill
Past owner 1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
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ValveTubeHead
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Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:32 am
Location: Sf Bay Area

Re: Cooling

Post by ValveTubeHead »

I'm struggling with effectively the same issue on my '61 build. Not really sure what the root cause is, but figure it just wants more airflow when sitting idle, at lights or in traffic; unless the water pump itself is anemic or something. I'm running a rebuilt oem replacement..., nothing fancy, but am starting to point fingers in frustration. Dunno, maybe edelbrock or another makes something with higher volume or rate. As it is, It simply breaks through the cooling capacity of the system and takes free-flight. Since I live in a very mild weather zone, im going to test the zero antifreeze and water wetter trick; bump my rad cap up to 16psi see what happens, Got nothing to lose, but will probably invest in a puller fan & shroud along with an alternator conversion to buffer added current draw; I like the Cooling Components offering you mentioned, looks like it will tuck in there nicely with full shrouding... I've got an external trans cooler mounted up front for my C6, but don't see that being relocated anytime soon.
I've been considering some form of heat extraction for the hood, it really does get very hot underneath... Something simple and gracefully implemented might serve me well. I've seen some cut and paste solutions that actually don't look too bad. :???:
Matt
'61 Tbird hardtop - restomod
'63 Chevy C10 short fleetside
'65 Chevy C10 long fleetside
'06 Porsche Cayman S
'15 Mini F55 Cooper S
bbogue
Posts: 850
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue »

Matt,
I have a Powermaster 90 amp alternator to power my electric fan when I make that move. Currently thinking more of a 16" Spal auxiliary pusher fan mounted in front of the radiator with their powder coated metal brackets bolted to the front radiator flanges. (I discovered on closer inspection that I do have flanges on the front of the radiator, top and bottom.) Will probably also use their gasket between the radiator and fan. A toggle switch would control the fan since it appears I'm OK except on the hottest days in traffic. I don't know where I'd put their 3/8" thermoswitch. If you have an idea maybe I can eliminate the toggle switch. FYI, A1 Electric has good prices on Spal. Good luck.

Bill
Past owner 1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
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ValveTubeHead
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Location: Sf Bay Area

Re: Cooling

Post by ValveTubeHead »

Think I may try a better water pump for starters, ratchet up from there; eg. http://www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/sto ... _info.html
Matt
'61 Tbird hardtop - restomod
'63 Chevy C10 short fleetside
'65 Chevy C10 long fleetside
'06 Porsche Cayman S
'15 Mini F55 Cooper S
bbogue
Posts: 850
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 3:04 am

Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue »

Matt,
I hope it works for you. For me, I would be a little concerned about increasing flow too much. I have only recently learned that heat transfer can be impaired by flow rates that are too fast. As a matter of fact, part of the function of the tstat is to control the flow rate. In my case, I noted that when my engine is overly warm 210-ish and idling, the inlet and outlet radiator temps were very close so cooling, not flow, was the issue. That's why I am considering an auxiliary fan. All this just FWIW. Good luck.

Bill
Past owner 1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
bbogue
Posts: 850
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 3:04 am

Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue »

Regarding placement of temperature switches for cooling fans, I have come up with 2 solutions for my 61.

(1) Use a radiator probe type switch. Lots of people seem to do this with no mention of harm to the radiator.

(2) Use an Auto Meter 2281 Heater Hose Adapter drilled and tapped for a threaded fan switch. During my engine reinstallation after rebuild I installed a 3-way tee in the manifold where the outlet heater hose connects in order to install a 62-and-later carburetor spacer with PCV connection. I abandoned this when I discovered there are some differences in the pre-62 manifold dimensions such that I had insufficient hood clearance. I went with a 61-ish PCV system but left the heater hoses in place like the 62-and-later Birds, routing the "extra" heater hose around the carb and then connecting to the 62-and-later Y-fitting for routing back to the water pump. The "extra" heater hose is used as a convenient spot for my aftermarket Autometer electrical temp sensor hose fitting. I could get another one of these, drill and tap the sensor hole to 3/8 FNPT and install a threaded type fan switch in this "extra" heater hose.

Votes? Comments?

Bill
Past owner 1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
bbogue
Posts: 850
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 3:04 am

Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue »

Matt (ValveTubeHead),

As I continue on my quest to cure my overheating issues, I ran across something that may be helpful and of interest to you. After discovering my vacuum advance was leaking and some of my overheating was coming from the resultant lack of advance and lean mixture, I then got into total timing and distributor recurving, discovering that my particular distributor centrifugal advance could add 20 degrees to whatever was the initial timing. It came in a little late so I swapped out one of the springs in the distributor for a lighter one so it now comes in just before 2500 rpms. With my initial now of 13 this gives me a total of 33. Mid-30's supposedly is good but some go even higher. I also read about tweaking the vacuum advance so it doesn't come in before 10" of vacuum and max's out at about 10 degrees of advance. This helps increase timing under light load (cruising) conditions for economy but goes away as soon as you jump on the throttle.

Then I read about using manifold vs ported vacuum for the vacuum advance. Warning: this is a little controversial and some are pretty opinionated. Not to ruffle any feathers, I decided to try running my advance from manifold vacuum. This now gives me 13 + 10 = 23 degrees of timing at idle which helps the engine run cooler, the primary reason I am trying this. Supposedly, there should be some additional vacuum as well but for me it was only an inch, if that. Right away I noticed the engine ran cooler at idle. Still in trial mode but another tool to work with. For a modified engine like mine, a modified way to handle vacuum advance may be helpful. We will see. Once I run this a while I probably will move on to adding a pusher fan.

Thanks to all for their interest.

Bill
Past owner 1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
novanutcase
Posts: 1814
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:58 am

Re: Cooling

Post by novanutcase »

bbogue wrote:Regarding placement of temperature switches for cooling fans, I have come up with 2 solutions for my 61.

(1) Use a radiator probe type switch. Lots of people seem to do this with no mention of harm to the radiator.

(2) Use an Auto Meter 2281 Heater Hose Adapter drilled and tapped for a threaded fan switch. During my engine reinstallation after rebuild I installed a 3-way tee in the manifold where the outlet heater hose connects in order to install a 62-and-later carburetor spacer with PCV connection. I abandoned this when I discovered there are some differences in the pre-62 manifold dimensions such that I had insufficient hood clearance. I went with a 61-ish PCV system but left the heater hoses in place like the 62-and-later Birds, routing the "extra" heater hose around the carb and then connecting to the 62-and-later Y-fitting for routing back to the water pump. The "extra" heater hose is used as a convenient spot for my aftermarket Autometer electrical temp sensor hose fitting. I could get another one of these, drill and tap the sensor hole to 3/8 FNPT and install a threaded type fan switch in this "extra" heater hose.

Votes? Comments?

Bill
Have you thought about replacing the fan pulley for a larger one? You may lose a few hp but you will spin the fan faster and pull more cfm through the 3 row radiator. You'll also need to replace the belt that drives the old pulley as it'll probably need to be longer depending on how much bigger a pulley you use but it would seem this may be a fairly inexpensive experiment that could solve your problem if you can find a good used larger diameter pulley that will mount. Maybe off of an early Mustang. Only other cost would be a fan belt. Definitely cheaper than an electric fan setup.

My radiator guy explained to me that using a lower temp T-stat on our cars is a good idea as it encourages more flow through the radiator. More flow introduces more turbulence through the tubes of the radiator. More turbulence gives more water touching the cooling surface of the tubes rather than just the outer area of the stream going through the radiator. Water comes into the engine at a lower temperature. He also pressure tested the entire system to make sure it was operating at the proper pressure with no leaks in the system. Higher pressure radiator cap.

I installed the airdam they suggested in the article below under my radiator and the temps dropped noticeably. I custom mixed my radiator fluid. One bottle of Supercool with Waterwetter. Softwater(not distilled) with 20% radiator fluid. My Rad guy helped me with this also. He said because we're in Cali the temperature stability in my coolant to ambient air wasn't so critical as somewhere where there are more temperature swings like in the Northeast. He suggested a 50% radiator fluid to softwater ratio for those conditions. I asked him why not just 50%/50% for here in Cali and he said that plain water was the best at holding and dissipating heat so the more water and the less radiator fluid the better it transfer heat when it was going through your radiator. Radiator fluid is just to keep it from freezing along with providing the ions it needs to keep the insides from corroding. He also said it would lower engine temps. Not alot but anything that helps these engines to run at a lower temp is a good thing.

Supercool with Waterwetter
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=117&pcid=10

A few tips you may want to explore.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccr ... ng-system/

*Ignition timing has a direct effect on cooling-system performance. Retarded ignition timing begins the combustion process later in the cycle and makes heat. Initial timing numbers of 12 to 16 degrees and a curve that's all in by 2,500 rpm is a good starting place.

*An electric fan placed on the engine side of the radiator (as a puller) is always more efficient than a pusher fan. However, additional airflow can be created by using a second pusher fan on the front of the radiator.

*Third-generation ('82-'92) Camaros came with an airdam placed directly under the radiator, which on older, high-mileage cars might be damaged or removed. These airdams are essential to create a low-pressure area behind the radiator to move air through the radiator.

*Jason Schmidt is an engineer with Spal, and he told us about a customer who had connected the power wire for a large electric fan directly into his fusebox. When large fans start, they can pull as much as 80 to 100 amps for 0.10 second. This large current draw pulled the voltage down far enough that the engine died. Wiring the power lead for the fan through a relay that sources power nearer the alternator cured the problem.

*The ideal tip clearance for engine-driven fans is 11/42-inch with the fan blade extending roughly halfway into the end of the shroud. This will create the greatest amount of air movement past the fan.

*Most engines are thermally more efficient at a coolant temperature of 195 to 200 degrees Fahrenheit. Pressure is also a critical function of coolant efficiency. A typical street-car cooling system operates at 15 psi. This pressure also increases the boiling temperature of water. As a rough rule of thumb, for every 1 psi of cooling-system pressure, the boiling point of straight water will rise between 2 and 3 degrees. Water boils at sea level at 212 degrees Fahrenheit, but at 15-psi gauge pressure, water boils at 250 degrees Fahrenheit.

Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccr ... z3iCn5sHMZ
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bbogue
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Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 3:04 am

Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue »

As usual, John, all good suggestions. I will definitely give them consideration. I might also try a thinner fan spacer since my fan is too far into the shroud.

Thanks very much.

Bill
Past owner 1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
bbogue
Posts: 850
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 3:04 am

Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue »

Update. On the advice of some knowledgeable guys on the Ford FE Engine forum I increased my initial timing to 16. This gives me total timing of 36 plus 10 from the vacuum advance at low loads. My seat of the pants impression is of better power and less hesitation. I may go as high as 18 initial timing after running her this way for a while. I plan to stay with manifold vacuum for the vacuum advance at least for the summer due to better cooling at idle. I will be installing a thinner fan spacer soon to get a better fit with the shroud. This should help cooling. On to a supplemental Spal pusher fan if this doesn't help sufficiently.

Bill
Past owner 1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers
mheffernan
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:50 pm

Re:More Cooling

Post by mheffernan »

Absolutely fascinating discussion, this. I have two '62's, one an original-engined coupe with 113,000. Temp needle barely gets off C no matter what's going on. Technician "shot" it at idle`with an IR temp sensor. Nothing over 210 anywhere following a freeway drive of 10 miles in moderate heat.
The *other* 'Bird, a convertible, does nothing *but* overheat: rebuilt engine, new pump, new rad core, new 'stat, new hoses, 50/50 mix with HyperLube water treament, tuned to spec. Does okay while cruising but needle rockets to H in rush hour traffic (L.A.). Oddly, enough, it did exactly the same thing, "run warm" in exactly the same way before the engine build. I was shocked when that didn't resolve it.
Considering fans (I saw a very nice install of a puller fan in a '63, replacing original fan and fan clutch), or I'd really like to find an all-aluminum radiator. But I will parse thru this discussion and hopefully find a solution.
M
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