Old Bird, New Build

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truesteve
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:39 pm
Location: Spokane WA

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by truesteve »

Very little progress. Started disassembling my spare rocker assemblies (from a 67 - 390) and found some wear on the shafts, rockers and stands. Now I have to de-grease my original 61 rockers to check for amount of wear. I picked up new sealed power rocker arm shafts from the local parts store for $30 bucks apiece. Now I'm left in the pickle that all restorers are eventually in, how much do I spend/replace? The level of performance I'm planning on/expecting does not warrant roller rocker arms. Spring pressure around 350 and lift under .530 is fine for stock non adjustable .173 rocker arms. I have the POP end stands for the shafts. I am a little concerned about the stock rocker arm spring separator set up. I might order a set of the solid separators. I will check the dimensions on the stock stands to determine if they can be re-used. If the stands and rocker arms are out of tolerances, Then I will go ahead and purchase a set of Harland Sharp assemblies. Everything I have read on the network54 FE forum, and other information, leads me away from the china made rockers and the Harland Sharp assemblies are about the next price level up with a huge advantage in quality.

Photo below shows the block with heads torqued and the old wood stove in the background ready to keep me working when it reaches a bone chilling 35 degrees here in the northwest. (It's a wet cold)

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Photo below shows the brass mikuni motorcycle carb jet drilled out and placed in the oil passage for the rocker arm flow. All the FE guys recommend this, and it's hard to argue with that much experience. The jet OD slips right in the passage ID and the bolt holding the rocker arm stand will prevent it from coming out.

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Classic disc brake kit was delivered. Here is a list of the issues I have had...and I haven't even started installing the product;
The rotors for the larger wheels (16" +) are 10.5 in the rear and 11 inch up front, seems small for "Larger upgraded rotors".
The rotors were not drilled and slotted as paid for, I was told they didn't have the drilled and slotted in stock, and just boxed up the plain ones anyway.
It took 54 days and not the advertised 10 to 14 days, and the rest is still yet to be delivered.
The Booster and master assembly were not included in the shipment, with no explanation or communication as to why. When I contacted them they said it's in the mail and I should have it by Thursday, 60 days after ordered...
No instructions included for installing the multi piece product....nothing...not even crappy ones like the sway bars from Larry's T-bird
Web site says "Assembled in USA", they say this because the products are not made in the USA, they just purchase them from overseas suppliers and "box them up" (ie..assembled) for sale to you and I.
In their defense they are supposedly refunding the $150 for the lack of drilled and slotted rotors, and an extra $100 for my troubles.
I will continue my list of complaints as I install the product and withhold my endorsement/final rating of their company until the install is complete, I'm less then impressed at this point...
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User avatar
truesteve
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:39 pm
Location: Spokane WA

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by truesteve »

I tried to post more photos, but the wonderful (sic) site Photobucket is down...glad it's free

I washed my 61 rocker arm assemblies to check for wear. Wow, they were black and gritty. Evidence of a lack of oil changes. The engine only had 81 T-miles (documented) on it, but because of the neglect of frequent oil changes, the wear was extensive on the tips contacting the valve stems. A .050 wear ridge is present on almost every rocker arm where it contacted the valve stem. I can imagine the ID of the arms and stands has a similar level of wear. I will be using my "spare" rockers from a 67 390 I purchased years ago. They have some wear present, but no wear ridges and the ID of the arms and stands is within tolerance. I will use the new sealed power shafts and solid spacers from Harland Sharp (ordered and on the way). Should be able to get the rocker arm assemblies together when the separators arrive. Then I can finally get the push rods measured and ordered.

On a positive note I am able to use the "fingered" oil splash/return valve shields from the 61. Several FE gurus from the Network 54 FE forum post that the fingered shields are proven to assist in the reduction of pooling oil in the valve cover, along with restricted flow.

Taking my rubber brake lines supplied with the Classic Disc Brake kit down to the local hose and fitting shop to have some stainless braided lines made. I learned how much of a difference braided steel lines make over rubber from my cycle days. Rubber hoses expand/balloon and degrade stopping power to a very noticeable difference. All my 170+ mph sport bikes had them and when I bought a big Harley and couldn't lock up the front tire with the stock rubber hose, I immediately replaced it with a braided line and was shocked at the improvement, easily locked it up.
FORD 61 bulletbird white/green Resto mod project
FORD 63 bulletbird white/red - parts for sale
FORD 85 F350 4x4 Diesel Turbo Dually/Crew
FORD 76 F250 4x4 highboy
FORD 48 8N Tractor work horse
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truesteve
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:39 pm
Location: Spokane WA

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by truesteve »

Photos from last post, now that photobucket is back up...

Parts washer and washrack

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old vs new rocker shafts

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Wear on tips of 61 rockers due to lack of oil changes, up to .050 edge/lip on rocker to valve stem

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checking the pushrod length...

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Information I have gathered on checking pushrod length on hydraulic non-adjustable setup. Make sure lifters are not pumped up, if you can't easily bottom them out by pushing on the lifter with your pushrod length checker installed, then they have some hydraulic pressure and must be bled. New lifter are normally not pressurized. Mark and index line on each half of your pushrod length checker. I used masking tape and a ball point pen as the sharpie marker line kept wiping off. Make sure the lifter you are checking is bottomed out on the round portion of the cam lobe. Bottom (shorten) your checker and place it in the lifter and push down, then align the pushrod under the edge of the rocker arm cup and release. It should be loose between the lifer and rocker. Place a .150 (.10 to .20) shim between the rocker arm and valve stem, and then adjust (while counting revolutions of the index mark) your pushrod checker out until the .15 shim is snug (not tight). Count the revolutions, and if between the index mark when stopped, mark a hash mark on the tape, write down the number of revolutions, because your old self may forget in the 2 minutes it take to remove it. Loosen and remove the checker and then extend it outside of the engine area on the bench the same number of revolutions, including the extra amount to the hash marks. I purchased a cheap 12" digital calipers from Harbor Freight, but you could use a scale/ruler and convert to decimals if needed. Remember the tolerance is .100 on the gap between the rocker and valve. That is a huge amount to work with, and that is the amount the hydraulic function of the lifer is supposed to make up/adjust to. Measure the check and that is somewhere within the range of pushrod you need. Randomly check other lifter/valves, ensuring they are bottomed out on the cam (not on the lobe ramp). There are only so many sizes of pushrods for the Ford FE. Mine went from the stock 61 T-bird length of 9.59 up to 9.62 due to machine work, new shafts and end stands, ect... Even the stock length is well within the tolerance given for the hydraulic lifer setup. There is way too much information on determining TDC of each cylinder and how many degrees you must index the crank... just turn the crank and look at the lifters if they are visible, you can see when each lifter is down, up, or moving, don't try to church it up when you are dealing with .10 of tolerance. Remember you are trying to get closest to the available length of pushrods out there in the aftermarket. If you are worried about .010 of anything then you should not be dealing with a non-adjustable system.
FORD 61 bulletbird white/green Resto mod project
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truesteve
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:39 pm
Location: Spokane WA

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by truesteve »

Shimming the solid rocker arm separators... The Harland Sharp separators I purchased came with 6 - huge .12 thick shims and quite a few .030 shims. I think I used 1 of the .12 shims. I had purchased little bags of several sizes of shims (.015, .030, .060) from precision oil pumps (POP) awhile back when I purchased my end stands, that came in very handy. After cleaning and measuring all components for acceptable tolerances, assemble the shaft, rockers, and separators and place on the head with bolts finger tight, to get an idea of where the rocker arms center over the valve stems. The process will involve you dis-assembling the separate components and removing the assembly several times before completion, so have patience. The goal is to have each rocker arm tip centered on the respective valve stem while not being too loose (side to side) or binding. I only had to file on the mating faces of 1 aluminum stand and 1 rocker arm to assist in this activity. When everything looks like it is centered within reason, place the splash shields under the rocker arm assembly and torque down the attach bolts to specs. This will have an effect on your previous work. Now go back and feel the resistance on the movement of each rocker arm. Use some masking tape to stick on each affected component and then record required shim movement. I would mark with a +.015 or a - .030 on the tape effected/binding area. Carefully dis-assemble the assembly as far as needed to make the recorded changes, re-assemble, re-torque and recheck. I did all of this with clean, non-lubed components as it is much cleaner to deal with. When I finally got everything where I wanted it, I dis-assembled, cleaned again, and lubed with assembly fluid. Everything was re-assembled for the last time (I hoped) and re-installed with the splash guards in place and all bolts torqued for final verification. All of this took about 2 hours for 1 side. The second side will go much faster after learning what not to do.

I found that the aluminum stand have variances in thickness that can effect binding and shimming. As far as I have read and can tell, the stands are the same, no matter where they were placed in stock configuration. If you are using end stand supports (highly recommended), then you will have 2 "extra" stands to play with. I moved a couple around and still ended up filing the mating face of one stand. I basically just cleaned up the casting texture on the face of the stand and adjoining rocker to assist in getting it centered as close as possible.

The reason to use solid separators is to limit the side to side play of the rocker arms using the stock spring separator setup. At higher RPM's the center 6 rocker arms can "float" to one side while using the springs. The outside arms are held captive by the stands and much firmer "spring" washers. They have been known to "float" off of the tip of the valve stem. Since rocker arms are levers, what ever is done to one side, effects the opposite side. Meaning that the floating action on the valve tip side, causes the pushrods to have side to side movement while going up and down at tremendous speeds under extreme compression loads. The stock springs from 1961 must have had some wear in 55 years resulting in a difference in spring compression rate. Using stock springs would increase the chances of rocker arm "Float". I'm not even sure the price of replacing the stock spring separators, as I couldn't find any new springs when doing a quick search.

None of this "floating" action sounds good to me, So I splurged and spent $70 on the solid separators.

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62birdman
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:42 pm

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by 62birdman »

Things are looking pretty good, amazing how much wear was on the shaft and rocker ends. This floating you are talking about, does it depend on the RPM, or just occur at any speed?
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truesteve
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Location: Spokane WA

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by truesteve »

62Birdman, I can't find any specifics about when in the RPM range this rocker arm side slip could occur. The FE forum over at network54 has it mentioned in several posts, but again no real specifics or documented studies. Once I read about the possibility, and I was at the point of needing to replace the 55 y/o spacer springs anyway, I chickened out and bought the solid spacers. I'm a die hard Ford FE believer, and I'm sure the stock setup is more than adequate for more than normal duty (been proven for almost 60 years), but if it can be improved upon, and I'm knee deep anyway...
FORD 61 bulletbird white/green Resto mod project
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62birdman
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:42 pm

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by 62birdman »

Thanks for the info, it does make sense, when you think about it. My motor was just rebuilt, but I will deffinently consider this option.
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truesteve
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Location: Spokane WA

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by truesteve »

The second set of rockers was cleaned, inspected and assembled last night. I had 1 rocker arm from my "spare" engine that had quite a bit of wear on the tip (about a .005 deep wear pattern). So I re-examined all of my rocker arms from the 61 set, and found 1 that had minimal wear. I pulled it off of the shaft, cleaned it up and inspected it. The evidence of the lack of oil changes was present on the inside diameter also. It checked out .005 larger than my "spare" set, but still within tolerance. All of the shims were installed and arms checked for excess play or binding. It will be dis-assembled tonight and re-cleaned and lubed for installation.

I still have to de-goo the valley pan (under the intake.) It has 1/4 inch of 55 y/o nastiness semi permanently affixed to it.

I will start the process of fit checking the Performer RPM intake tonight for any flow interference issues and pushrod clearance. The RPM intake is much lighter than the stock unit, but I'll still hook it to the chain hoist and load leveler to ease in the movement and fitting.

New comp cam pushrods should be in tomorrow....there may be a dim pinhole of light starting to become visible in the distance.....
FORD 61 bulletbird white/green Resto mod project
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ozbird
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Location: Australia

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by ozbird »

Looking good, check intake with valley tin before washing it. ..I could not install both. Might save you some extra cleaning!?

Graeme
1962 Hardtop - in Melbourne, Australia
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truesteve
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:39 pm
Location: Spokane WA

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by truesteve »

Thanks for that advice Ozbird. I have been busy and haven't had any progress on the Bird.

Happy Veterans Day! Go out of your way today to thank someone who sacrificed part, or all, of their life to ensure the freedoms we all enjoy. :usa
FORD 61 bulletbird white/green Resto mod project
FORD 63 bulletbird white/red - parts for sale
FORD 85 F350 4x4 Diesel Turbo Dually/Crew
FORD 76 F250 4x4 highboy
FORD 48 8N Tractor work horse
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truesteve
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:39 pm
Location: Spokane WA

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by truesteve »

No progress on the bird to report...procured a blast cabinet and am in the process of completing upgrades. Installed a regulator/moisture filter, better LED light, enhanced the siphon tube, sealed all joints, placed a barrier/channel to guide exiting air through vacuum system, and installed supplemental bulkhead port to allow for pressure blasting as well as the siphon system. I'll use it (carefully) to freshen up the engine tins as well as shock tower braces, hood hinges and assorted other details that need freshening up. Still have to install the glass

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Hopefully this addition to the shop will speed up Bird resto-mod progress
FORD 61 bulletbird white/green Resto mod project
FORD 63 bulletbird white/red - parts for sale
FORD 85 F350 4x4 Diesel Turbo Dually/Crew
FORD 76 F250 4x4 highboy
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ozbird
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Location: Australia

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by ozbird »

Best thing you have done there is to replace the original blaster light with something very bright. It will become dusty and lose brilliance but at least you can see what is going on.

Graeme
Last edited by ozbird on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1962 Hardtop - in Melbourne, Australia
stubbie
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Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:23 pm

Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by stubbie »

I bought something similar to that. Use it for 5 minutes, filter becomes blocked then starts spewing dust out of the top door to the point were it is unusable. spend more time cleaning the filter than using the blaster. I must look into modifying it somehow.
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ozbird
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Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by ozbird »

Subbie, you need a bigger vacuum?!
1962 Hardtop - in Melbourne, Australia
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55Greg&Amy
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Re: Old Bird, New Build

Post by 55Greg&Amy »

I have an attachment for mine that I hook up the shop vac to and it sucks out the dust. I also took the glass out of mine and put 6-8 layers of clear drawer liner on it then reinstalled the glass. When the glass gets hard to see thru I simply reach in and pull off a layer like the tear offs for windshields in Nascar. I started this because the first piece of glass lasted less than a year before it was unusable.
Greg Minnich
Kendallville, IN
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